Comments on: Washed Out http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/ Development site for Bronx Banter Blog's upcoming look and feel Thu, 23 May 2013 23:26:22 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: brockdc http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49761 brockdc Thu, 30 Jun 2005 22:42:40 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49761 <p><b><a name="36" rel="nofollow"></a>36.</b>  Jedi, Yanks:</p> <p> Torre has made some glaring tactical errors over the past nine years. They've become increasingly more frequent (me thinks) over time, due to the departures of Maz and Zim.</p> <p> We'll never know for sure just how much of those championship teams' success was due to Torre's managing. How much of it was a product of great talent and/or the Maz-Zim effect? </p> <p> Either way, you must admit that his current line of decision making is enigmatic at best and destructive at worst. </p> 36.  Jedi, Yanks:

Torre has made some glaring tactical errors over the past nine years. They’ve become increasingly more frequent (me thinks) over time, due to the departures of Maz and Zim.

We’ll never know for sure just how much of those championship teams’ success was due to Torre’s managing. How much of it was a product of great talent and/or the Maz-Zim effect?

Either way, you must admit that his current line of decision making is enigmatic at best and destructive at worst.

]]> By: Simone http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49760 Simone Thu, 30 Jun 2005 21:02:19 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49760 <p><b><a name="35" rel="nofollow"></a>35.</b>  Nick, the rumored Marlins trade is Burnett and Encarnacion for Sheffield. The Yankees could then trade Encarnacion for a right fielder and a reliever is possible. Maybe then Wang could be traded for Kotsay. The Yankees need at least 3 pieces to become a playoff team and they have to make moves sooner than later whether they involve Sheffield or someone else. </p> 35.  Nick, the rumored Marlins trade is Burnett and Encarnacion for Sheffield. The Yankees could then trade Encarnacion for a right fielder and a reliever is possible. Maybe then Wang could be traded for Kotsay. The Yankees need at least 3 pieces to become a playoff team and they have to make moves sooner than later whether they involve Sheffield or someone else.

]]> By: uburoisc http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49759 uburoisc Thu, 30 Jun 2005 14:14:02 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49759 <p><b><a name="34" rel="nofollow"></a>34.</b>  singledd, I agree with your comments; I think you're spot on, thanks. Oh, and Sheff is a Yankee, period. He carried the team through much of last season and has been everything NY has asked of him: tough, competitive, and consistent. He can play in NY and belongs in NY; you don't trade the guy who produces, it kills morale; you sit the guy who doesn't. I think the team needs to fix a couple holes (and Torre might be one of them) and they will get the wild card. </p> 34.  singledd, I agree with your comments; I think you’re spot on, thanks. Oh, and Sheff is a Yankee, period. He carried the team through much of last season and has been everything NY has asked of him: tough, competitive, and consistent. He can play in NY and belongs in NY; you don’t trade the guy who produces, it kills morale; you sit the guy who doesn’t. I think the team needs to fix a couple holes (and Torre might be one of them) and they will get the wild card.

]]> By: jedi http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49758 jedi Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:50:17 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49758 <p><b><a name="33" rel="nofollow"></a>33.</b>  "El Duque had never pitched in MLB before, had spent time in the Yankees' farm system, and had been coached extensively by Billy Connors.</p> <p> Irabu was too awful to count.</p> <p> Wetteland had better seasons with Montreal.</p> <p> Grimsley had a better season with KC. "</p> <p> I thought you were talking about "career year" here, not "years"</p> <p> - Wetteland's 1996 World Series MVP Season is hands down his best season of his life! 1993 in Montreal can be stiff competition but the overall diverence is the World Series Title and MVP status under Torre. His best "career year" was under Torre</p> <p> Grimsley and Irabu I'll give you, but they are boderline, because they had major impacts in their careers in their first years under Torre regardless of how they turned out </p> 33.  ”El Duque had never pitched in MLB before, had spent time in the Yankees’ farm system, and had been coached extensively by Billy Connors.

Irabu was too awful to count.

Wetteland had better seasons with Montreal.

Grimsley had a better season with KC. “

I thought you were talking about “career year” here, not “years”

- Wetteland’s 1996 World Series MVP Season is hands down his best season of his life! 1993 in Montreal can be stiff competition but the overall diverence is the World Series Title and MVP status under Torre. His best “career year” was under Torre

Grimsley and Irabu I’ll give you, but they are boderline, because they had major impacts in their careers in their first years under Torre regardless of how they turned out

]]> By: Yanks in NH http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49757 Yanks in NH Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:29:55 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49757 <p><b><a name="32" rel="nofollow"></a>32.</b>  Again, I never said it was all Torre - he had the benefits of a great farm system and aggressive recruiting of talent, strong predecessors preparing the way, top coaches, and a limitless payroll - but in the end, he put it together and brought home multiple championships, so he must have done something right! </p> 32.  Again, I never said it was all Torre – he had the benefits of a great farm system and aggressive recruiting of talent, strong predecessors preparing the way, top coaches, and a limitless payroll – but in the end, he put it together and brought home multiple championships, so he must have done something right!

]]> By: Yanks in NH http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49756 Yanks in NH Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:24:04 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49756 <p><b><a name="31" rel="nofollow"></a>31.</b>  Good point - a great manager gets production from all around not requiring any individual player to have a career year to win.</p> <p> And hey, who cares whether anybody had career years - Championship Ring's are more important in my book! </p> 31.  Good point – a great manager gets production from all around not requiring any individual player to have a career year to win.

And hey, who cares whether anybody had career years – Championship Ring’s are more important in my book!

]]> By: Rich http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49755 Rich Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:19:35 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49755 <p><b><a name="30" rel="nofollow"></a>30.</b>  El Duque had never pitched in MLB before, had spent time in the Yankees' farm system, and had been coached extensively by Billy Connors.</p> <p> Irabu was too awful to count.</p> <p> Wetteland had better seasons with Montreal.</p> <p> Grimsley had a better season with KC. </p> 30.  El Duque had never pitched in MLB before, had spent time in the Yankees’ farm system, and had been coached extensively by Billy Connors.

Irabu was too awful to count.

Wetteland had better seasons with Montreal.

Grimsley had a better season with KC.

]]> By: jedi http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49754 jedi Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:11:28 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49754 <p><b><a name="29" rel="nofollow"></a>29.</b>  El Duque<br /> Irabu<br /> Jason Grimsley<br /> Stanton<br /> Wetteland</p> <p> All ptichers who had career years under Torre and not from the farm </p> 29.  El Duque
Irabu
Jason Grimsley
Stanton
Wetteland

All ptichers who had career years under Torre and not from the farm

]]> By: Nick from Washington Heights http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49753 Nick from Washington Heights Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:38 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49753 <p><b><a name="28" rel="nofollow"></a>28.</b>  Oh yeah, Tino's 2nd year with the Yanks was a career year. </p> 28.  Oh yeah, Tino’s 2nd year with the Yanks was a career year.

]]> By: Nick from Washington Heights http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49752 Nick from Washington Heights Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:53:09 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49752 <p><b><a name="27" rel="nofollow"></a>27.</b>  this is a fun question (I know it's probably rhetorical) and I might be wrong because he probably played under Showalter but didn't Mariano Duncan bat .340 in 1996. Also, Charlie Hayes had a career year under Torre. Also Jeff Nelson's best years were with Torre. Same with Stanton (part 1). Who else? Must be a couple more. </p> 27.  this is a fun question (I know it’s probably rhetorical) and I might be wrong because he probably played under Showalter but didn’t Mariano Duncan bat .340 in 1996. Also, Charlie Hayes had a career year under Torre. Also Jeff Nelson’s best years were with Torre. Same with Stanton (part 1). Who else? Must be a couple more.

]]> By: JohnnyC http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49751 JohnnyC Thu, 30 Jun 2005 12:47:07 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49751 <p><b><a name="26" rel="nofollow"></a>26.</b>  "Assembling talent is one thing - but getting them to play to that talent level is another thing."</p> <p> Name me one player other than Scott Brosius (and his best BA was in 1996 with Oakland)who was not a product of the Yankees farm system or acquired after Torre's first Spring Training who had his career year under Torre's guidance. You won't find a single starting pitcher or relief pitcher. </p> 26.  ”Assembling talent is one thing – but getting them to play to that talent level is another thing.”

Name me one player other than Scott Brosius (and his best BA was in 1996 with Oakland)who was not a product of the Yankees farm system or acquired after Torre’s first Spring Training who had his career year under Torre’s guidance. You won’t find a single starting pitcher or relief pitcher.

]]> By: Yanks in NH http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49750 Yanks in NH Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:53:34 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49750 <p><b><a name="25" rel="nofollow"></a>25.</b>  Boy, its so easy - just put it on autopilot and let it go! Assembling talent is one thing - but getting them to play to that talent level is another thing. I never said Torre was the key difference - but a definite part of the recipe in getting the most out of the players. You don't win 4 Championships in 5 years and contend for the Championship 2 other years just because you have great talent, because others have had great talent as well with nothing to show for it.</p> <p> Based on your theory, this team should not even need a manager, because on paper the talent should guarantee a World Championship - but it just doesn't work that way, does it!</p> <p> Complain about this year if you want, because he's not getting them to play at the level they should (at least not yet!) But, you cannot knock his part in their success! </p> 25.  Boy, its so easy – just put it on autopilot and let it go! Assembling talent is one thing – but getting them to play to that talent level is another thing. I never said Torre was the key difference – but a definite part of the recipe in getting the most out of the players. You don’t win 4 Championships in 5 years and contend for the Championship 2 other years just because you have great talent, because others have had great talent as well with nothing to show for it.

Based on your theory, this team should not even need a manager, because on paper the talent should guarantee a World Championship – but it just doesn’t work that way, does it!

Complain about this year if you want, because he’s not getting them to play at the level they should (at least not yet!) But, you cannot knock his part in their success!

]]> By: jedi http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49749 jedi Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:52:42 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49749 <p><b><a name="24" rel="nofollow"></a>24.</b>  CF Derek Jeter<br /> DH Bernie Williams<br /> RF Gary Sheffield<br /> SS Alex Rodriquez<br /> LF Hideki Matsui<br /> C Jorge Posada<br /> 1B Jason Giambi/Tino Martinez<br /> 2B Robinson Cano<br /> 3B Eric Duncan</p> <p> It's as simple as that and no trades or money have to be exchanged. Suck it up Jeter...we need your arm and speed in center...do it for the team dammit! </p> 24.  CF Derek Jeter
DH Bernie Williams
RF Gary Sheffield
SS Alex Rodriquez
LF Hideki Matsui
C Jorge Posada
1B Jason Giambi/Tino Martinez
2B Robinson Cano
3B Eric Duncan

It’s as simple as that and no trades or money have to be exchanged. Suck it up Jeter…we need your arm and speed in center…do it for the team dammit!

]]> By: JohnnyC http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49748 JohnnyC Thu, 30 Jun 2005 11:23:06 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49748 <p><b><a name="23" rel="nofollow"></a>23.</b>  brockdc, I feel you, man. but we still get comments like Yanks in NH's as if Torre was the difference in 4 championships. LOL, the Yankees were the AL's winningest team in 1994, one game away from the ALCS in 1995...all without the genius of Torre. The Yankees' dynasty was the product of, for the most part, 2 men: Gene Michael and Buck Showalter...Michael assembled the parts and Showalter taught them how to win. What's more, 95% of his coaching staff was not hired by him but given to him on a silver platter...he barely even knew Don Zimmer and Mel Stottlemyre before Arthur Richman inveigled George to hire them. Every time Torre has had to stand alone on the merits of his so-called managing, he has failed. Failed with teams that had the highest payrolls AND have been concensus picks to at least play in the World Series if not win EVERY SEASON SINCE 1998. How can this be more clear? </p> 23.  brockdc, I feel you, man. but we still get comments like Yanks in NH’s as if Torre was the difference in 4 championships. LOL, the Yankees were the AL’s winningest team in 1994, one game away from the ALCS in 1995…all without the genius of Torre. The Yankees’ dynasty was the product of, for the most part, 2 men: Gene Michael and Buck Showalter…Michael assembled the parts and Showalter taught them how to win. What’s more, 95% of his coaching staff was not hired by him but given to him on a silver platter…he barely even knew Don Zimmer and Mel Stottlemyre before Arthur Richman inveigled George to hire them. Every time Torre has had to stand alone on the merits of his so-called managing, he has failed. Failed with teams that had the highest payrolls AND have been concensus picks to at least play in the World Series if not win EVERY SEASON SINCE 1998. How can this be more clear?

]]> By: domvjr http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49747 domvjr Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:53:04 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49747 <p><b><a name="22" rel="nofollow"></a>22.</b>  Let me add my 2 cents. Keep Sheff, he may be a pain in the ass, and seems to be slipping defensively this year, but he is dangerous at the plate. The Yanks need his O. </p> 22.  Let me add my 2 cents. Keep Sheff, he may be a pain in the ass, and seems to be slipping defensively this year, but he is dangerous at the plate. The Yanks need his O.

]]> By: Max http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49746 Max Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:30:56 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49746 <p><b><a name="21" rel="nofollow"></a>21.</b>  Not sure it's fair to say Nomar was doing "nothing"...it's easy to see in retrospect that he was breaking down physically in his last days with the Sox (continuing through to his current disastrous stint with the Cubs), but he was still fairly productive offensively at the time the trade was made, and had many good moments that were overlooked. </p> <p> Defensively however, he was a total liability, his clubhouse demeanor had become an issue, and he was going to walk at the end of last season if he wasn't traded.</p> <p> Agree that the comparison with Sheff's situation is strained, apart from the broad goal of using a trade to shake up an underachieving team, and getting better defensively. </p> 21.  Not sure it’s fair to say Nomar was doing “nothing”…it’s easy to see in retrospect that he was breaking down physically in his last days with the Sox (continuing through to his current disastrous stint with the Cubs), but he was still fairly productive offensively at the time the trade was made, and had many good moments that were overlooked.

Defensively however, he was a total liability, his clubhouse demeanor had become an issue, and he was going to walk at the end of last season if he wasn’t traded.

Agree that the comparison with Sheff’s situation is strained, apart from the broad goal of using a trade to shake up an underachieving team, and getting better defensively.

]]> By: Yanks in NH http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49745 Yanks in NH Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:04:41 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49745 <p><b><a name="20" rel="nofollow"></a>20.</b>  Nomar was doing nothing when they traded him - Sheff is doing quite a bit more than that! Don't see the comparison at all. </p> 20.  Nomar was doing nothing when they traded him – Sheff is doing quite a bit more than that! Don’t see the comparison at all.

]]> By: Max http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49744 Max Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:03:34 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49744 <p><b><a name="19" rel="nofollow"></a>19.</b>  Count me in with the group that intensely dislikes the idea of trading Sheffield. There are far worse problems on this team than his bat and defense. </p> 19.  Count me in with the group that intensely dislikes the idea of trading Sheffield. There are far worse problems on this team than his bat and defense.

]]> By: Yanks in NH http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49743 Yanks in NH Thu, 30 Jun 2005 10:02:41 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49743 <p><b><a name="18" rel="nofollow"></a>18.</b>  What is this obsession with everyone thinking the Yankees have to make a trade to make a run for the playoffs? I wholeheartedly agree with singledd's analysis - the team simply needs to play up to its potential, or even just a little better and we'll be fine.</p> <p> It seems like everyone wants to make a trade for the sake of making a trade, but I don't care what kind of deal they can make, it still won't make a bit of difference unless the majority of the players play up to (or even close) to their potential instead of well below! </p> <p> Everyone also seems to be complaining about Torre's coaching (and he has made questionable moves for sure) but hey, the guy got us 4 World Championships in 5 years and 2 more appearances to boot! Nobody was complaining then and if his formula wears out certain pitchers, you can't complain about the results because I don't see anyone else out there with better results to show! </p> 18.  What is this obsession with everyone thinking the Yankees have to make a trade to make a run for the playoffs? I wholeheartedly agree with singledd’s analysis – the team simply needs to play up to its potential, or even just a little better and we’ll be fine.

It seems like everyone wants to make a trade for the sake of making a trade, but I don’t care what kind of deal they can make, it still won’t make a bit of difference unless the majority of the players play up to (or even close) to their potential instead of well below!

Everyone also seems to be complaining about Torre’s coaching (and he has made questionable moves for sure) but hey, the guy got us 4 World Championships in 5 years and 2 more appearances to boot! Nobody was complaining then and if his formula wears out certain pitchers, you can’t complain about the results because I don’t see anyone else out there with better results to show!

]]> By: Nick from Washington Heights http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49742 Nick from Washington Heights Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:36:40 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2005/06/29/washed-out/#comment-49742 <p><b><a name="17" rel="nofollow"></a>17.</b>  quite a few people are making the parallel with the Nomar trade last year. I don't think it fits mainly because Nomar was not nearly as important a player to his team as Sheff has become with the Yanks. The Yanks are .500 team with Sheff. Without, they dip to competing for last place with the Rays. </p> <p> Simone, what is the rumored Marlins trade? I'm not against trading Sheff but I have serious doubts that any deal would bring back what the Yanks need for now and the future. If it is a good offer, then of course it should get done. </p> 17.  quite a few people are making the parallel with the Nomar trade last year. I don’t think it fits mainly because Nomar was not nearly as important a player to his team as Sheff has become with the Yanks. The Yanks are .500 team with Sheff. Without, they dip to competing for last place with the Rays.

Simone, what is the rumored Marlins trade? I’m not against trading Sheff but I have serious doubts that any deal would bring back what the Yanks need for now and the future. If it is a good offer, then of course it should get done.

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