Players salaries should have absolutely NO bearing on how they are rated. Their salary is what some owner offered to pay them. ARod never said he was worth 25 mil… that’s just was T. Hicks offered him.

19. murphy: I believe Jetes was offered 11 mil/yr and was mulling it over, wanting 1 or 2 mil more. Then Hicks stepped in and offered the 1 or 2 SS’s better then Jetes 25 mil. Hence, 17 mil/yr.

Mantle has 18 World Series HRs. Now, if you make it to the WS, you get about 2.5 times the ABS in the PS, as just playing in the WS. Think about it. 18 HRs in JUST the World Series.

I am thrilled with yesterdays win. I still think our O, in general, has been weak (considering our talent) in the last 2-3 weeks. Better pitching has held us together.

I think ARod in a generally very decent guy. Because of the money (not his fault) he takes a lot of grief. I am really glad to have him, and hope that he and Jetes can get their friendship back to a high level.

Leiter still has stuff. His only real issue is always nibbling and hence, not throwing enough strikes.

Yes, that’s my take on it as well.

Last night on YES, someone said they thought A-rod’s problem was that he tries too hard. I think that could be it. He goes up there trying to hit a home run every time.

Matsui, when interviewed after last night’s game, said he was not trying to hit a home run. He was just trying to get on base. And he got the game-tying homer.

Jeter held that record for no grand slams for so long. I suspect it is because when he goes up with the bases loaded, he doesn’t try for a grand slam, he just tries to get on base, get a run in.

Maybe A-rod should tone it down a little, in the clutch situations. Last night, a couple of walks and a base hit was enough to win the game. You don’t need to swing for the fences every time.

The news about Gooden is sad. Drug addiction is simply heartbreaking whether is a famous baseball player or the average person, the destruction of lives is the same.

This is a real question, I am not being a smart-guy. Jeter is definitely not a choker: the fact that his averages and projections from post-season play (which you deserve credit for providing) are right on his career average marks speaks to that. In addition, I can remember him having some big moments in the post-season: the HRs against Baltimore and Arizona, the shuffle pass against the A’s. There are many, some hazy, since he arrived in New York in 1995.

That is all good for him and the New York Yankees, but I cannot think of a time where he picked up the team and (near single-handedly) carried the team on his shoulders to victory, which is how you describe his story: “He’s won 17 of 22 post-season series with some of the biggest moments in recent history to his credit.”

Sure, he had some big moments, but he has had some failings, too. I wish this blog, or maybe RLYW, would post and continue to count the number of times this year Jeter has had a chance to WIN the game, this, the first year since 1997 the Yankees are in danger of missing the playoffs and thus needing their clutch-god more than ever. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least a half a dozen. Which is to say nothing of moments like last night, when he had an opportunity in the 8th to put the Yankees ahead and struck out and then made the throw pulling Escalona off the bag in the 9th, allowing Hudson to reach safely and score the go-ahead run on Rivera.

I can remember moments feeling (not measuring) that players like Rivera, Cone and Hernandez weren’t going to let the team lose, but no batter over the years ever came to the plate giving me the impression that they were going to suceed and propel the team forward (although Jeter did have an excellent 2000 post-season), like Pudge in 2003, Bonds in 2002, Jones in 1999, Puckett in 1991, Henderson in 1989, and so on. Those guys dominated.

And Jeter’s never really dominated, which I guess is why I am reluctant to hold him above criticism. He was awesome in 1999. From then on, sure, he’s played consistently well above average, makes few mistakes, has all the intangibles, but he never elevated his game. I always remember a David Justice comment, when discussing Jeter, that “he would never dominate baseball, because he liked hitting the baseball so much, that he would never really learn HOW to hit.” That really stuck with me.

So, I’ve seen Big Papi, Lee and Pujols dominate this year and last year it was Vlad carrying the Angels on his back. Its been Bonds for years (PEDs or no PEDs). Chipper has done it, and Griffey and ARod, too. But Jeter just isn’t dominant.

He’s a great player, and a great team player, and Yankee fans are lucky, but he deserves to be discussed and debated, not deified.

I’ve said it here before regarding Jeter. He simply plays the game the right way. He is an example to my kids on how to put the pinstripes on and work hard and NOT make excuses. The other thing I always say about him, albeit a simple one, is that his uniform is always dirty at the end of the game. I am a teacher and coach (high school level) and even if I weren’t a Yankee fan, I’d appreciate his game. These clowns around here can have their Manny crap, Damon Idiocy, Camera-on-Schilling, etc.

Okay, I might have been a bit more fiesty there than was needed. So I need that tone down a bit.

I understand why you have a soft spot for Jeter. Like I said before, he is one of my favorite Yankees, but in terms of what his contribution is, I like to view them as part of teamwork. From what I understood, you gave him more credit than most of his teammates, and that to me is a pushing it a bit. Paul O’Neill deserves every bit of the adulation Jeter gets, as does many others.

That does not discredit the fact that Jeter’s reputation is well-deserved. A fantastic hitter, with questionable but effective defense as a SS. But that however, does not immune him from criticism of his less than stellar play when they happen. From your statement, the word that you were “shocked” at criticisms of Jeter a seemed bit too much to me.

I, for one, do not believe that a WS ring is any testament of a player’s ability. Post-season series are short series, and they certainly have that competitive one-on-one atmosphere which is great for business, but a marathon 162 game league, played against multitude of opponents is where true greatness could really be measured. Do you really think any one of the Florida Marlins players in 2003, other than Pudge Rodriguez (and maybe Miguel Cabrera and Josh Beckett in the making) would ever qualify for greatness of any measure?

Also, fans are born everyday, and by virtue of that fact, there would be modern fans and old-day fans. More imporant however, are whether fans are blind about worshipping heroes or whether they look at a player and objectively evaluate their strengths and weaknesses. I have no shame in admitting that I admire the heroics of David Ortiz, even though Yankees are the team I love, and hence, the team that is most killed by his heroics. Maybe that’s why my admiration of Jeter does not forbid me from making an objective assessment of his quality as a plyer, and not the fact that I have been a fan for x number of days.

Jeter’s paycheck covers not only his worth on the field, but also how much of a crowd puller he is. The economics of the salary merits an objective evaluation of this entire thing, and I would admit that I do believe he is not as overpaid as he is made out to be, if he is overpaid at all. But, as a baseball fan, I would want to make an objective assessment of Jeter and his place in Yankee history and the contemporary team. While his contribution this season has been solid, he has failed to elevate his game to his normal average when it has mattered (or clutch, if you would have it that way). That doesn’t take away from his past accomplishments. His past accomplishments does not make him a better player than he is today either.

I really think of what Torre said the other day, ARod is just an easy target. Jealous one’s envy. ARod probably would be successful in anything if he weren’t playing baseball. Manny who has the second highest contract in majors proably would have been lucky to catch a job walking a dog. Basically people find solace in that Ramirez is a dumb ball player. On the other hand, ARod probably would have been their boss or that sales guy who’s always booking those million dollar contracts.

I was one of the people who felt ARod let a lot of Yankee fans down last year, but the more I saw him play this year, the more I saw how unselfish his play was and how little credit he gets for doing the right things like running to first (unlike ManRam) – even though those are things you are suppose to do. That’s when I started to see the light that a lot of that negative energy is just baseless. People’s perception is based off of envy. He’s fun to watch and I truly like the way he carries himself.

“How many rings do Bonds and Manny have? One, between them.”

Rings require a team. Mark Bellhorn got a ring last year — that doesn’t make him better than Bonds. If you’re going to talk WS rings, then you have to compare the Yanks vs. the Giants vs. the Sox. If you’re talking “clutch,” it’s all about the individual stats (which, to your credit, you discuss).

“He’s won 17 of 22 post-season series”

Correction: He and the Yankees have won 17 of 22 post-season series. You make it sound like that old Bugs Bunny cartoon: “Attention! Now pitching: Derek Jeter. Second base: Derek Jeter. Left field: Derek Jeter…”

Being a “clutch” player doesn’t mean how you perform in October — it’s how you perform in a clutch position during any part of the season. So while Jeter has a higher postseason average than Manny, that doesn’t necessarily make him more “clutch.” (And for the record, I don’t consider Manny a clutch hitter — just a great one. Ortiz is the clutch guy on the Sox.)

And after all that, I have to say that I don’t believe in “clutch” anyway…

And…you’re right that I’m being “overly” defensive. And, yes, I am a typical Yankee fan. That’s why I come to post on this board.

That’s not my logic at all, by the way….That Ted Williams had a futile career because of his lack of post-season success. That the way YOU take my argument. Think of it this way….Jeter’s numbers in the post-season are all the more amazing considering what All-Time great HOF legends have failed to do in their careers. Mattingly included. Great player. Injury plagued career. Not the player that Derek Jeter is….

Mariano is one of my all-time favorites. Without him, we aren’t even having this discussion, but it’s unrelated to Derek Jeter, because he pitched one or two innings when the Yankees have the lead. He does it better than anyone has ever done it, but Jeter gets him the lead with his bat and protects it with pretty strong defense.

I would say that you are more the typical modern fan, who can see past yesterday and succumb to the “what have you done for me lately” Sportscenter memory blackouts that seem more common than ever. It still boggles my mind that anyone would question Jeter’s greatness. He’s not even my favorite Yankee.

I’m not trying to fire up an argument actually. I respect the fact that we’re all here to share our opinions and we’re all entitled to them, but….I’m really shocked when I hear people criticize Jeter. He earns every penny of his paycheck, and then some.

To his credit, Manny Ramirez will finish as the all-time HR leader in post-season play. He has 18 now, and Bernie is not likely to pad his numbers much more.

Bernie is the leader in virtually every statistic in post-season rankings. I know that the lists are super-populated by recent Yankees because we play an extra playoff round now, and the Yankees have a 100-200+ payroll, and the pitching has been great, and all that, but hats off to Bernie and Jeter for getting the big hits that kept the Yanks moving through the playoffs round after round.

It makes what the old Yankees of the 20′s, 30′s, 40′s, 50′s, and 60′s did all the more amazing when you see their names still plastered all over the all-time WS rankings with nary a modern day name between them.

That was an overly defensive and typical Yankee fan reaction. No one is bashing Jeter here, he deserves a lot of credit for what he has done. But to give him a free pass when he frequently has come up with the last out in the game when the game was still competitive, AND at the same time ragging on Rodriguez for being non-clutch shows unspeakable hypocricy, to say the least.

And Jeter did not win all those WS all by himself, he was an important part of a very good team that won. If we were to accept your logic, the Ted Williams had a completely futile career, because he never won a WS. Would you say the same of the other Yankee clutch God, Don Mattingly? Would you hold it against him that he never won a WS?

Want to really talk about clutch? Let’s talk Mariano Rivera, and THEN get back to me about Jeter.

Enough said.

Jeter’s not clutch? How long have you been a Yankee fan? Have you watched Jeter play in October?

How many rings do Bonds and Manny have? One, between them. They’ve been to a combined 3 WS, while Jeter has been to 6 and won 4.

Jeter’s career postseason average is .306 over 110 games. He’s won 17 of 22 post-season series with some of the biggest moments in recent history to his credit.

Manny Ramirez, in 78 career post-season games, has a .256 average.

Barry Bonds has only played in 48 total post-season games over a 19+ year HOF career. He has a robust .245 average to his name with a whopping 9 home runs.

Jeter has good reason to be considered a golden boy, and I’m sure that I’m not alone in feeling a little protective and somewhat shocked that anyone (particularly a Yankee fan) would have such a short memory of his accomplishments in our uniform.

Do you remember what it was like before he came up to play short? I know that other players were involved in our success, but Jeter isn’t the Captain for his rousing lockerroom speeches.

Other Yankee post-season numbers:

Paul O’Neill (85 games, .284 average)
Bernie Williams (115 games, .280 average)
Tino Martinez (95 games, .230 average)
Jorge Posada (83 games, .229 average)
Chuck Knoblauch (66 games, .258 average)
Scott Brosius (58 games, .245 average)

As for the newer Yankees:

Gary Sheffield (36 games, .258 average)
Alex Rodriguez (26 games, .330 average)
Hideki Matsui (28 games, .339 average)
Jason Giambi (31 games, .279 average)

There you have it. The un-clutch Alex Rodriguez boasts a .330 average in October, including numbers that project out over a season to about 100 runs, 200 hits, 40 HRs, and 100 RBIs. Jeter hits .306 and projects out to 115 runs, 200 hits, 20+ HRs, 30+ 2Bs, 20+ SBs, has a handful of baseball history’s classic moments on his resume, a WS MVP…..but he’s not clutch….Sheesh. What’s a guy gotta do in this town to be a walking immortal?

Does anyone else think that Roger Clemens has done a great job of shutting up everyone who talked about his arbitration demands? I believe he has been worth more than what he is earning this season, if that is possible. He puts people on seats, keeps Astros in contention, and pitches like something never seen before.

1) the classic: you’re also paying for the intangibles.

2) the logical: when jeter signed that contract, it seemed that salaries would continute to climb at the ridiculous rate that they were moving at at the time. the yankees (and most fans and i) figured that by the end of the contract jeter would still be fairly young and the 19.6 would seem like a steal. since the baseball world has started to move back towards reality after the scam boras/arod pulled off, a contract like jeter’s suddenly seems a little more outlandish.