The Bronx Terminal Market? I think we are talking past each other because the Bronx Terminal Market is not my idea of commerce. or the past 30 years, the BTM has been a sea of corruuption and decay. Besides, wholesale ethnic foods are not the kind of commerce that appeals to a wide customer base. Now, the new BTM project, which boasts “18 acres of land and approximately 1 million new square feet of retail space, featuring well-known, brand-name national retailers” could very well attract Yankee fans, especially if there is favorable tax treatment.

Urban development doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It requires cooridnated investment by companies as well as inducements by municipalities.

And that was happening while the Dodgers were there. It happened while the Yankees were in the Bronx.

perhaps with greater development and infrastructure in the area, there may be expanded commerce.

I don’t know if we’re talking past each other, but there is currently plenty of opportunity for commerce available. Certainly there was with the Bronx Terminal Market, and several other shopping centers within reasonable distance of the stadium.

You may think that’s insignificant, but I am sure the hundreds of people who make a living off of them think differently.

And I’m sure the thousands who don’t think differently as well…

As for whether Yankee fans shop in the surrounding businesses around the Stadium, the answer is Yes and in large numbers. From souvenir shops to delis to bars and other service oriented establishments, thousands of fans spend money in the immediate neighborhood. Now, they don’t stroll down the the Grand Concourse to shop for clothes, but perhaps with greater development and infrastructure in the area, there may be expanded commerce. Regardless, the businesses linked to the Stadium do benefit. You may think that’s insignificant, but I am sure the hundreds of people who make a living off of them think differently.

Yes I have. Been to the site of Crosley, Nickerson, Forbes Fields, and Jarry Park, among others.

The problems those particular areas went through have little to do with the departure of the Giants and Dodgers. But I’m sure the housing currently in place serves a useful purpose.

You aren’t fully considering the situation if you think the loss of YS could easily be replaced (also, comparing YS to the Expos and Boston Braves suggests a misunderstanding of the context).

I may be misunderstanding something, but my point is that if the Yankees were to leave the Bronx tomorrow, there’d be gnashing of teeth and rendering of garments, but life will go on. New York City withstood the loss of the Giants (baseball and football), Dodgers, Jets and Giants, and we can name a bunch of other cities that have lost “major league” teams that have managed to survive.

You honestly don’t think 4mn people coming into the area on 81 dates has an economic impact?

Of course it does. But how many of them actually shop there? How many of that 4M don’t even see the nabe, funneling in and out of the subway stations or garages to their destination?

Yankee Stadium isn’t far from Concourse Village, & the 3rd Ave & Southern Blvd shopping districts. You have the courthouse, a main branch of the post office and Hostos there. Mott Haven was/is being redeveloped.

As I stated in [1], the waived tax revenue is probably just over $5mn per year. Considering that the investment would not have been made without the PILOTs, this is a small price to pay to attract over $1bn in investment into a region that definitely needs it. The alternative would have been to have the Yankees remain in the old place (at an increasing maintenance cost to the city that could have exceeded the $5mn cost) or see them leave the Bronx. I think either option would be more expensive than the $5mn revenue waiver.

As for the jobs, I think you’re wrong. While Bordsky claimed that the new Stadium will only create 15 jobs, the Yankees claim that number is 1,000. Intuitively, 15 more jobs just doesn’t make any sense when you consider the increased amenities and full-year installations. Also, it ignores the very real construction jobs that have been in place for 2+ years. According to the Yankees, construction of the new Stadium has employed 6,000 people, 25% of whom are Bronx residents. Also, over $132mn in contracts have been awarded to Bronx-based businesses. What’s more, the Yankee Stadium project is bringing improved infrastructure and increased visibility that will provide leverage to the other construction projects underway in the Bronx.

I can understand why some people would be sensitive about the notion of a profitable business feeding at the public trough, but I think most of those arguments belie a complete misunderstanding of the finances involved. The Brodskys of the world have seized on an issue that gets a lot of play, but their arguments have little substance.

[18] The Yankees are investing $1bn in the South Bronx because they could invest in the Yankees in any other part of the region. It seems as if you think “investment” must be a charitable endeavor? Unless you think the South Bronx would be better off if the Yankees moved to Manhattan or New Jersey, then their decision to stay is an investment in the area.

[19] Have you ever been the site of the former Ebbets Field? I don’t think the Flatbush area of Brooklyn has moved on successfully. The former site of the Polo Grounds probably hasn’t fared much better. I guess they could building another housing project in place of Yankee Stadium, but something tells me that wouldn’t bring prosperity to the Bronx. You aren’t fully considering the situation if you think the loss of YS could easily be replaced (also, comparing YS to the Expos and Boston Braves suggests a misunderstanding of the context).

As for the MTA station, it would not have been built without the new YS…how can I say that? Well, it has been long proposed, but is only now being built.

[21] You honestly don’t think 4mn people coming into the area on 81 dates has an economic impact? Many businesses make a disproportionate amount of revenue in a condensed time frame, so it would not be unusual if many area businesses inch toward the black thanks to those 81 home games. I would imagine that all the surrounding businesses benefit greatly from the influx of potential customers. Just do a search on the economic impact of the 1994 strike for an illustration.

Given that the Stadium is open at least 81 times a year, that should come as no surprise. I don’t think it was the case either, when the Yanks were barely drawing 2M people

Which is perfectly fine, but WRT infrastructure, I would say the former Sedgewick & Jerome-Anderson Ave lines, as well as the NY Central Putnam terminus would have served the area fine. Who knows, it’s a possibility that if the Yanks werent there, these structures would still exist?

FWIW, I remember the plans for the Metro North station being on the books in the 80′s

Maybe you are right and the South Bronx could easily replace the Yankees, but many in the community disagree.

All I have to go on is history.

Brooklyn & Manhattan may miss the Dodgers and Giants, but they’ve moved on. Boston may miss the Braves, but they moved on. Go to Montreal, and you’d never know the Expos played there. They’ve moved on (many would say while they were still there). I don’t think New York and the Yankees would be unique in this regard.

While I won’t dispute that the billion dollars invested in the South Bronx (SoBro? HA!) is a good thing, I can say with a degree of certainty that looking around the boroughs, had the Yankees moved in the 60′s – 70′s -80′s or whenever, The Bronx would’ve found something to do with that land, whether it’s housing, parkland, mixed use development, whatever

Chyll, even the restaurants in the area – except for those right across the street – don’t depend on the Stadium. It might help business sometimes, but it’s the courts and the shopping that keep them going.

You’re wrong about the jobs. They’re minimal. There’s virtually no debate about the benefits of a new stadium to a city; study after study has shown little to no economic benefit. The mall being built on the site of the old Terminal Market will benefit the community – without loss of parkland, and without massive underwriting by the taxpayers. That is completely independent of the Stadium. it will provide real jobs and real money coming in, and nothing about the Stadium makes a difference to it.

The politicians like it, though. I guess that means that it has to be serving the greater good, because we know that politicians couldn’t possibly be supporting it otherwise.

Maybe you are right and the South Bronx could easily replace the Yankees, but many in the community disagree. Perception doesn’t always equal reality, but this time, it could be yours.

Perception doesn’t equal reality.

I don’t have a dog in this fight, but if the Yanks left the Bronx, the Bronx isn’t going to implode. They’d find something else to do with the open land, whether it’s housing, shopping, or entertainment.

Aside from the economic impact, I wouldn’t be surprised if the payroll taxes collected by the city don’t completely offset the deferred tax revenues.

The park lands are being replaced, albeit it not at the rate some in the community would like. While that may be unfortunate, it is far from despicable.

Whether the benefit to the city is miniscule is widely debated. The estimates on the economic impact vary. What is a fact is the local politicians in the South Bronx have fought hard to keep the Yankees, so they must perceive some value to the community. Also, while the jobs may be seasonal and lower paying, that doesn’t make them less important to the people who hold them.

For months now, the press has been beating the drum of a raw deal, but very few seem to be dancing to the beat. The fact that so few seem to be paying attention could very well be a sign that so many are fine with the arrangement. I don’t think you need to understand how the PILOTs work to be against the arrangement…especially with the media, which doesn’t understand them, presenting them as a boondoggle.

Thought you might enjoy this (giant crossword):
http://tinyurl.com/8oj2z9

“The questions for this crossword puzzle are located in different point of interests of the city, like monuments, theaters, fountains etc. So people while walking around the city can try to answer the questions and writing down the answers.”

(you know the rest…)

Btw, does Soriano being 33 include the being two years older he admitted to after being traded to Texas? >;)

[6] I’m with you, JL. It seems more likely that most people outside the neighborhood just don’t care, being safely ensconced in their habitats outside of the rusty, crumbling and germ-infested Bronx we’re supposed to be (oh yeah, the crime too), so whatever in their eyes and minds that changes the landscape is an improvement. And I love the talk about the jobs created with projects such as these, when in reality you’re mostly talking about temp jobs; perhaps non-union (benefits? nnnngh!) with peripheral revenue being spent in the restaurants and that’s basically it. I mean, taking away free-access parkland to build a stadium that people in the neighborhood can barely if at all afford to go near (hyperbole alert!) is a good idea to some, but I don’t live in that neighborhood and even I get the willies without it being a play on my name.

But no one talks about it, mainly because most of the people who really should be talking about it aren’t around. Fair enough that most people, myself included, don’t understand the concepts of PILOT payments and such (which I think gets thrown around so much that it perhaps purposefully obfuscates the situation as a whole); yet you and I can talk all day, but what impact will we have unless we’re big enough to take on Bloomberg Inc. and his B-bbb-B-U-nit! ? I’m generally pissed, but at a loss as to what to do or suggest; especially if few people are concerndabbouddit…

And that’s horrifying.

Betemit was bad at nearly everything. Awful hitter, awful defender, awful runner. But he hit the odd HR, so some people were satisfied with his shitty, shitty play.

Berroa is Alberto Gonzalez without the glove or Wilson Betemit without the odd HR.

That frightens the hell out of me.