BTW, why do you defend NoMaas, are you one of the anonymous posters there?

This just such nonsense.

Torre is a good manager when he has great talent. That’s why is career managerial record was under .500 before he got to the Yankees, and why he won four rings when he had the benefit of tremendous talent and a huge payroll when he was handed the keys to a Yankee team that Stick and Buck built from scratch.

But your point about Gordon is even more ridiculous, and in order to rebut it, I will use your won words:

All the stat guys agree that there are many times that a sample size is too small to make a judgment about a player.

Gordon has pitched 21.2 career playoff innings, but somehow you think he is the “worst playoff pitcher ever” despite that tiny sample size, which you just said is so important when judging a player.

Yet you mocked the intelligence of the people at NoMaas? At least they can make a point without rebutting it in the their next paragraph.

Great work.

The thing that recommended Torre was his overall approach and disposition. It was just a good fit for that team, for this city. That being said, I think someone sitting in the same position year after year does get stale and it just needs to change after a while. Particularly with this team, some members of which still have the “we’ll be fine” attitude when it hasn’t been appropriate for nearly a decade … Torre was very much part of that vibe. Girardi tries to put it forth; I don’t know if he feels the need to because that’s been the Yankee spiel for so long, but it comes off as either stupid or disingenuous.

Torre definitely believed it, and had reason to as he’d seen so much success. He just didn’t know when the window had closed. They probably should have fired him after 2004, it was a fireable result but at that point success still was relatively recent. It would have seemed rash, I think. I do believe the playoffs are often a crapshoot, but mainly the five game series, and even if that was bad luck, it was just too much.

Anyway, I always thought Girardi lacked the stature to fill Torre’s shoes. As I’ve said recently, it seems insane that he got the job considering his lack of experience and the potential issues among the veteran stars of the team. Ah well.

WRT the bugs, I don’t see it as tight managing, because even though Torre could’ve pulled his players off the field, the Indians played under the same conditions. In hindsight, he thinks he should have, but the Indians didn’t think it was an issue, and the umpires didn’t think it was an issue either; they also have the ability to stop the game if they see fit.

I understand where you’re coming from WRT 2001-07, I’m just saying that from 1996-00, he has done the same WRT moves that made you scratch your head. There was luck then, just as there was luck from 2001-07. Rivera saves game 7 in 2001, Wells’ back doesn’t crap out in 2003, Rivera saves either games 4 or 5 in 2004, Johnson does better in 05, or the collision doesn’t happen, or Rodriguez doesn’t GIDP in 2005, etc, etc, etc, and the team success as well as Torre looks a whole lot better.

The issue I had with 2007 was that everyone was singing and praising his accolades for the work he had done in getting the Yanks to the playoffs, then all of a sudden they lose to the Indians then all of a sudden Torre doesn’t know what he was doing. I felt it to be a bit unfair. And this coming from someone who hardly be called a Torre supporter.

I give (gave) Girardi a pass for last season. I kinda alluded to it by saying that Torre wouldn’t have made the playoffs with the Yankees last year; they were overloaded with injuries and ineffectiveness, and IMO it finally caught up to them last year.

As for trading players, it can be done, it depends on how much a team is willing to eat, or how much a team is willing to give in return. The Johnson trades come to mind, as does the Abreu trade, as does the Brown trade (it just dawned on me that with the Brown and Rodriguez trades, the Yanks have taken on two “megacontracts” of recent history). If a team wants to get rid of a player bad enough, they will find a way.

With regard to the midges: I view it as tight managing because I think it is evidence of constricted thinking. That is, failing to consider and then utilize the option that one later realizes is the most optimal course to take.

Just to be clear, I’m not saying that Torre’s mismanagement was the only or even the biggest reason they didn’t win from 2001-2007. As Pat Riley has said, after a while, coaches (or managers) that remain in one place for a long time become stale, and the players don’t respond in the same way.

And it’s easier to change the manager than the players, which leads me to:

I give Girardi a pass for last season. The team is not playing up to their talent level this season, and imo, they look listless. It may not be entirely his fault, but sometimes change qua change is the only way to turn a team around, especially because it’s very hard to trade veteran players for veteran players in an era of mega salaries.

I was more indifferent than anything else, I didn’t think Torre was that big a problem, and I hold both parties responsible for bungling the ending.

A lot has gone wrong the last couple of years, I don’t think that even if Torre was retained for the 2008 season that the Yanks would made the playoffs. Firing Torre would’ve been a lot easier then.

WRT the midges, I’m trying to see how that is an evidence of “tight” managing.

That’s precisely my point. By needlessly using an already overworked Gordon in Game 3 with a nine run lead, he increased the chance that Gordon would be ineffective in subsequent games, as he was in Game 5:

T Gordon, H (4) 0.2 2 2 2 1 0 1 6.23

thereby reducing the team’s margin for error.

Granted, Rivera could have obviated the need for Gordon in Game 5 by not screwing the pooch in Game 4, but he didn’t, and as a result of Torre’s prior overuse of Gordon, he had one less bullet in his chamber and it cost him (and the team) in Game 5, and as a result, the series.

Batting Rodriguez 8th, I can see as being “tight” but not pulling the team off the field?

Raf, Torre himself has admitted that he should have taken the team off the field.

What about going to Hughes to replace Clemens? What about pitching Ohlendorf in relief of Wang? Using Mussina in relief of Wang? What about starting Bubba Crosby in CF? Or Going to Johnson in relief in game 5 of the 2005 ALDS? That doesn’t sound like “tight” managing to me.

I view those moves as being made out of necessity, rather than offering any evidence of tightness or lack thereof, although the unfamiliarity of Crosby and Sheffield in the OF in Game 5 of the 2005 ALDS may have cost Mussina (and the team) a win.

There is some merit in much of your post (although I wish you would separate your paragraphs), but your criticism of NoMaas is patently unfair.

There were many reasons why the Yankees won four rings from 1996-2000, and Torre’s presence undoubtedly provided a positive contribution (I assure you that the people at NoMaas know that), but that doesn’t necessarily mean that his strategic weaknesses didn’t play a role in their failure to win the WS in 2003 (Jeff Weaver for two IP) or 2004 (I already mentioned misusing Gordon), or their quick exits from the playoffs in 2005, 2006, and 2007.

Consequently, NoMaas was on solid ground when they highlighted Torre’s strategic blunders because they laid a factual predicate for each one they criticized, including his failure to give some young relievers a chance by refusing to give them regular work unless they pitched well immediately, or his proclivity to overuse relievers not named Rivera who had some success (see the NTY article that Dilane linked on Proctor in which the surgeon said his ligament was “mush,” and Torre’s excuse was he should have told me there was a problem, when any reasonable person knows that most guys trying to make it in MLB aren’t going to ever ask out no matter how they feel).

It’s also inaccurate to say that the smart people at NoMaas don’t recognize the role that the human element plays in managerial success merely because that never was the subject of their posts. Let’s not forget that many people deified Torre, acting as if he was sacrosanct and immune to criticism, almost asking people to kiss his rings. NoMaas provided a necessary and imo, a welcome, counterpoint to that sycophantic absurdity.

Anyway, just because it was time for Torre to go, it doesn’t necessarily mean that Girardi is the right man to guide the current team, even though I strongly thought he was when he was hired.

I have now concluded that he is a terrible fit for this team.

The Yankees should have fired Torre after the 2004 ALCS collapse, and they paid the price for letting him hang around for three additional seasons.

The Yankees should not make a similar mistake with Girardi.

In game 4, you had Rivera on the mound with a lead. 3 outs away from the World Series. That Torre used Gordon the night prior has no bearing on having a well rested (4 days?) Rivera ready for the kill in game 4. We hear all the time about having your best pitcher in to save the game. That’s what Torre did in game 4. Torre then worked his pen backwards after Rivera blew the save. Then he went to the “formula” in game 5, going from Gordon to Rivera. Gordon had nothing, Rivera blew the save.

Batting Rodriguez 8th, I can see as being “tight” but not pulling the team off the field? Especially in the context that the Indians were playing under the same conditions? Or Posada not properly blocking the wild pitches (as he has done his entire career)

What about going to Hughes to replace Clemens? What about pitching Ohlendorf in relief of Wang? Using Mussina in relief of Wang? What about starting Bubba Crosby in CF? Or Going to Johnson in relief in game 5 of the 2005 ALDS? That doesn’t sound like “tight” managing to me.

By using the word “regardless,” you are overlooking the very real possibility that overusing Gordon significantly reduced their margin for error, which, in a short series, doesn’t have to be very large in order to have a huge impact.

Any examples? It looked to me that he managed the same way over the years. His “trusted” guys both failed and succeeded in the postseason from 96-07.

Just off the top of my head:

How about batting A-Rod 6th in Games 1 and 2, and 8th in Game 4, in the 2006 ALDS, which many players later said sent a message of panic to the team. Meanwhile, he batted Sheffield 4th in the three games he played even though he hardly hit either.

Or how about not taking the team off the field in the 2007 ALDS when the midges descended on the field, a non-move that Torre himself later admitted was a mistake.

[48] The idea of Joba as Gossage – first, I think someone else came up with that but anyway – the idea there is a big, intimidating force in relief. A pitcher with Gossage-like attributes best serves the team out of the pen. I’m not saying I agree but I do think there is a point to the comparison.

The classic example is the Joba to the pen argument. Francesa makes statements like “Joba has to relieve because he reminds me of Goose Gossage”…you can think he should be a reliever (although I disagree) and he can remind you of Gossage, but the latter is not some sort of justification of the former.

???

[45] I don’t think there’s anything wrong with any of those statements. I mean, I don’t agree necessarily, but those are legitimate takes on things.

The Red Sox are 8-0 because they’re “gamers” and the Yankees “have no heart”…Sabathia “isn’t as good as Santana” even though that is completely irrelevant…”all Torre ever did was make the playoffs” even though the results became consistently inconsistent as the years went on. It goes on and on.

It’s a “sports radio” argument. Easy to discount until you listen to the type of people who listen and call in to his show.

Regardless, they had Rivera on the mound with a lead in games 4 & 5. You could say that Torre went for the kill in game 4 by calling on Rivera in the 8th.

I think the 2004 collapse changed the way Torre managed in the playoffs; he began to manage tight,

Any examples? It looked to me that he managed the same way over the years. His “trusted” guys both failed and succeeded in the postseason from 96-07.