Especially since the 99 MVP was a terrible decision, Jeter, Ramirez, Alomar, Pedro and Nomar all would have been better choices (or even Palmiero) …

Wake me when the saying changes to, “OPS+ wins titles.”… if I live that long…

Also, I indeed stand by my opinion that a two-tool player like Piazza does not belong in the HoF as a Catcher. I believe the correct term is “Hall of Fame Catcher,” not “Hall of Fame OPS+ Man,” but the HoF lost credibility with me decades ago both from their inductees and their omissions.

Omar Minaya agrees. He wishes he had traded Gary for Chris, straight up.

You’re right, though, the difference of a few OPS+ points, the difference between Chris Sabo and Gary Sheffield is negligible.

I thought so…

So here we have a Catcher with a WS Title, an MVP, shutting down running games for virtually an entire catching career, 700 less SB’s allowed, average offense or better, versus a career OPS+ 33 pernts higher, and outstanding offensive production yielding a bunch of Silver Sluggers (10) [Pudge got quite a few of those, too.(7)], but zero Batting Titles, HR Crowns, or RBI Awards…

Hmmm…

Add their respective post season offensive numbers into the mix and it renders this argument moot. I’m not getting all worked up over 58 OPS pernts favoring Piazza when it mattered most, considering pitchers could steal a bag off of him.

Two tool players (hit for average and power), specifically Catchers, do not belong in the Hall of Fame in my opinion.

But whatever…

: )

Pudge may have been worth more. Like I said, there was an article a couple of years back citing (I think) WARP, that had Pudge well ahead. But this is based entirely on his perceived defensive value. And one of the main points of the article on which this thread is based is that defensive metrics are questionable.

For what it’s worth, we can quantify how much a stolen base is worth, how much a caught stealing is worth, etc. Iran these numbers last year when discussing Posada v. Molina, but don;t have the energy to find the posts in the archives.

Now, whether Pudge’s defensive strengths outweighed Piazza’s enormous offensive advantage is another story. But you just can’t ignore how much better with the stick Piazza was. In terms of OPS+, Piazza (142) was roughly the same hitter as Sheffield (141), Killebrew (143), Giambi (144), and Frank Howard (142). Pudge (109) was roughly the same hitter as such all-time greats Chris Sabo (109), Frank Catalanotto (198) and Lee Mazilli (109). Pudge had ONE season of OPS+ better than Piazza’s career AVERAGE.

Running game may be overrated, and indeed it probably is, but since teams DID run, shutting it down can surely be seen to matter! In other words, if no one stole, Pudge’s skill in throwing them out would, agreed, be trivial. But since people DID run, making those runners outs not fellows on 2nd base matters a lot. I think it is a red herring/misplaced argument to cite a running game’s weakness in this discussion. Add in pitchers focusing more, less rattled, more confident, and there’s that, too.

What’s intriguing was scuttlebutt about Pudge late in his career being someone pitchers didn’t want to throw to. Remember that when he was here, too? That he’d call fastballs to make it easier to gun runners, that he was a control freak (had a right to be, maybe, by then?)

My pernt with the Hits/Game was that Pudge was no slouch with the bat the way Piazza was behind the dish.

I’d even rather have Gary Carter as my backstop, especially in the playoffs.

As for their relative hits per game, I would respond with these three far more significant comparisons:

.377 v. .337
.545 v. .463
.142 v. .109

In fact, over their respective careers, their Hits/Game are as follows…

Pudge – 1.14
Piazza – 1.11

: O

And don’t even get me started on the “Five Tools,” given how I hate those with two or less and all…

: )

But that was my point. To date I don’t find defensive metrics particularly reliable, so I tend to go with offense and then grade plus or minus based on defensive reputation, metrics, and what I see. Catching defense is particularly difficult to evaluate, if I recall.

But you are correct, maybe the new fangles stats will change my position. Or maybe they will show that Pudge’s defensive advantages have been exaggerated and it is your ranking that will change!

And if you STILL pick Piazza because you don’t trust current D stats, then maybe these new stats will change a number of your positions. I think a lot of ‘average’ fans would pick Piazza because they don’t know how much Pudge’s D and CS added to his value.

I think for some players, if these new stats prove, or are believed accurate, that it will affect the perception and salary of a number of players.

I hate one or two tool players. There is much more to effectively being an asset to a winning team than that, especially at Catcher.

“Pitching and defense wins titles.”

: )