I began by tipping my cap to the points you made, and to the validity of the discussion. Still feel that way. I guess my post boils down to: Is that a discussion we really need to have during the first week of August, in connection with the anniversary? We can be flinty-eyed analysts the rest of the year.

That’s certainly an interesting take. I was ony 5 when he died. Over the years, I never really thought he died “stupidly” (tragically, like Lyman Bostock, maybe) but I do wonder if the Yanks granted his wish to be traded to Cleveland if he would still be alive today. Presumably he bought the jet so he could make it home quicker to spend more time with his family.

But I still think that is why he got the job. He didn’t have such a great year, although he knocked in over 100 runs. Some said the Yankees should not have another Captain. They had just returned to the Stadium when he was named. They needed to reestablish credibility. Virdon had been fired during the season, replaced by Billy. The Yankees finished third. Boston and the Reds played a spectacular World Series.

How about some of my other points?

I don’t want to talk anyone out of their grief or their childhood memories.

“When Thurm came up, the Yankees were nowhere. The Boss [had] just stolen the team from CBS…”

Munson came up in late 1969. Steinbrenner and his group bought the team the winter before the 1973 season.

There’s probably a lot of validity in your “what-if he’d lived” letting of air from the Munson legend. But the regard in which people hold his memory is based on the reality that he *did* die too young. Emotion and fact weigh equally.

I consider myself a pretty rational, mature baseball type. But when the subject is Munson, I’ll always be an 11-year-old fan arriving home from a trip to Shopwell with his mom and hearing the news from a neighbor kid. If you want to talk that 11-year-old out of a measure of reverence for Munson… keep trying.

I was going to say it’s sad he got dumped but then I just wrote that bit about getting paid off to the tune of 5 million.

I am not a Munson fan. He wasn’t around long enough and I was a Reggie fan. I agreed with the straw comment. Now Reggie, the Yankee eg0-advisor has recanted, too. He did so originally in the Vescey book, contending there that had Thurm lived, they may have won the pennant in 1979, even though they were 14 games out on the day Thurm died. This despite the fact Thurm may not have caught again and seemed to have lost his power, not to mention his ability to throw the ball.

I felt betrayed when Thurm died, not only because I think he hated New York and would have left the team at the end of 1979, but because he died stupidly, hurting the team and its fans. Think about the way history would have been rewritten had Reggie and Bobby Murcer been in the plane with him. They allegedly turned down a ride and suggested to their friend and teammate that he leave the flying to someone else.

At 32 which I was at the time, he was a contemporary whose death seemed senseless, but it hit so close to home that we all felt mortal and sad. Then he became a hero, almost a deity. For what, I do not know. He was always grousing, ignoring the press, secretely saying he wanted to leave the Yankees because he and George had some agreement that had been breached. Appel even opines he probably would have managed the Tribe if he had lived, not the Yankees. He also says that Thurm would have done roids if it would have given him better stats.

When Thurm came up, the Yankees were nowhere. The Boss has just stolent the team from CBS and the guy from the circus. They had no homegrown players–Roy White, Stan Bahnsen-maybe some others, but I cannot remember. He was named captain by George (who was suspended during the early or mid 70′s) over some objections by insiders including Billy. The team needed a leader and a star as they awaited George’s reinstatement and the opening of the checkbook. He did not disappoint. Then, the world changed with Messersmith and Hunter.

Thurm’s clutch hitting and his management of pitchers cannot be discounted, but does he deserve all the credit for the Yankee successes of 1976-1978? And where was he going to play at the end of 1979 or thereafter? His last three appearance were at first base, like The Mick in his later years. Awkward. Only three homers on August 1. He had played the outfield in 1977, but allegedly didn’t like it. Yogi and Ellie toiled there without complaint.

As someone noted, in Thurm’s MVP year, Mick the Quick had carried the team until his late season injury and may have won the award if he didn’t get hurt and lazy. And what about all those other stars during those years? Those teams had some players, several of whom are in the H of F. Sparky Lyle had a hell of a year in 1977 winning the Cy Young. Guidry went 25-3 in 1978. Gossage relieved in 1978. How about Catfish and Reggie? Chambliss played first. Figgie wasn’t so bad either. Nettles became the best 3rd baseman since Clete. They had Randolph and Dent. Roy White played left. Lou was on those teams too.

Thurm had a positive relationship with Billy? The guy was a nut who got fired in the middle of 1978, leaving Bob Lemmon who had his own demons to calm down the Zoo. Do you mean the secret meetings? Were there two sets of rules for white players and black players as Sparky alludes to? How did he get along with Virdon and Lemmon? Why was Houk fired if their relationship was so good? How about manager of the year Virdon who gets fired. I guess I will have to read the book, because I have a lot of questions.

I went to a lot of games during that period (some Shea years) and read and followed them religously, discussing their daily travails with my neighbor Rich Lally. Thurm may have been appreciated, but not by all (I am speaking for myself here and noone else), and not to the exclusion of the many other stars. People seem to have forgotten this after his death, ignoring the great cast the Yankees had on the field during those years.

I am not sure that in the scheme of things he would make the all-Yankee team, either the first, second, or third team. Where do you think he ranks amongst the great Yankee catchers? I mean you got Dickey (whom I didn’t see) and Yogi, Ellie (he won an MVP in 1963 with 28 homers), and the incumbent, Mr. Posada (also homegrown).

Hairston: .259/.328/.372 (85 OPS+)
Ransom: .233/.321/.401 (87 OPS+)

A major upgrade? I grant that Hairston’s the better and more versatile defender and the faster baserunner, and that Ransom’s major league stats still suffer from a small sample, but Hairston is a similarly inept hitter with less power. I’m not sure I see a huge difference between the two. To my mind, the upgrade centers around the fact that, with Gardner on the DL, Hairston gives the Yankees a viable defensive replacement in the outfield. Once Gardner returns, however, I’d be just as happy with Cody.

I’m less enthusiastic about Gaudin as well, but I’ll elaborate on that in my game preview this evening. I do agree that I’d rather the Yankees make this sort of low-risk pickup than trade a top prospect for something less than a front-end starter.