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	<title>Comments on: Oh Andy, Well You Came And You Gave Without Taking&#8230;</title>
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	<item>
		<title>By: 51cq24</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218673</link>
		<dc:creator>51cq24</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218673</guid>
		<description>[109] unless by &quot;touched and then dropped&quot; he meant caught and then dropped</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[109] unless by &#8220;touched and then dropped&#8221; he meant caught and then dropped</p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218672</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218672</guid>
		<description>Oh, I mis-read.
NO. It is not possible. If the foul pop is not caught, then of course the ball is dead and runners return to their bases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, I mis-read.<br />
NO. It is not possible. If the foul pop is not caught, then of course the ball is dead and runners return to their bases.</p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218671</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218671</guid>
		<description>[107] Yes.
He doesn&#039;t know the rules, and he made up a story that&#039;s impossible.

I have reposted the story in the game thread, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[107] Yes.<br />
He doesn&#8217;t know the rules, and he made up a story that&#8217;s impossible.</p>
<p>I have reposted the story in the game thread, by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: 51cq24</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218670</link>
		<dc:creator>51cq24</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218670</guid>
		<description>[105] isn&#039;t that possible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[105] isn&#8217;t that possible?</p>
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		<title>By: Yankster</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218669</link>
		<dc:creator>Yankster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218669</guid>
		<description>[82] great post.

[83] You are right that wins &gt; runs. And probably that it&#039;s easier to improve the management of outs than to improve the ability to get hits (because the concept of outs as an asset is relatively new to baseball while hitting is, at least conceptually, mature). The strategy of using outs as an asset is not necessarily the last  &quot;the optimal strategy.&quot;  A team merely not giving up outs to the best of its ability could still lose to a team with a conscious goal of a high out strategy like having a relatively low OBP but with high slugging, for example.
[93] [98] fantastic</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[82] great post.</p>
<p>[83] You are right that wins &gt; runs. And probably that it&#8217;s easier to improve the management of outs than to improve the ability to get hits (because the concept of outs as an asset is relatively new to baseball while hitting is, at least conceptually, mature). The strategy of using outs as an asset is not necessarily the last  &#8220;the optimal strategy.&#8221;  A team merely not giving up outs to the best of its ability could still lose to a team with a conscious goal of a high out strategy like having a relatively low OBP but with high slugging, for example.<br />
[93] [98] fantastic</p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218668</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 21:03:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218668</guid>
		<description>[104] Oh, I forgot /irony. Oops. (He did lay down a sac a few days ago with two strikes, remember?)

For some reason this just occurred to me. Did anyone else smack your own forehead so hard it was painful when Jon Miller demonstrated that the basic rules of baseball are too complex for him? It was after the Swisher &quot;appeal play&quot; at second. They&#039;d shown the replay and Joe Morgan was trying to save face (he had smugly announced that Swish left too early), and he was grasping at straws and said that the runner can leave as soon as the ball touches the fielder&#039;s glove (as if this helped Joe&#039;s case). And Miller agreed (this part is correct), and then claimed to have seen a game in which a runner scored from third on a foul pop that the fielder touched and then dropped. He said he &lt;i&gt;saw&lt;/i&gt; this play.
My god.
I swear, Joe Morgan looked like a giant in the booth. He was Dustin Pedroia standing between two five year olds, towering over them like a giant. A huge, gritty, giant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[104] Oh, I forgot /irony. Oops. (He did lay down a sac a few days ago with two strikes, remember?)</p>
<p>For some reason this just occurred to me. Did anyone else smack your own forehead so hard it was painful when Jon Miller demonstrated that the basic rules of baseball are too complex for him? It was after the Swisher &#8220;appeal play&#8221; at second. They&#8217;d shown the replay and Joe Morgan was trying to save face (he had smugly announced that Swish left too early), and he was grasping at straws and said that the runner can leave as soon as the ball touches the fielder&#8217;s glove (as if this helped Joe&#8217;s case). And Miller agreed (this part is correct), and then claimed to have seen a game in which a runner scored from third on a foul pop that the fielder touched and then dropped. He said he <i>saw</i> this play.<br />
My god.<br />
I swear, Joe Morgan looked like a giant in the booth. He was Dustin Pedroia standing between two five year olds, towering over them like a giant. A huge, gritty, giant.</p>
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		<title>By: Raf</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218667</link>
		<dc:creator>Raf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218667</guid>
		<description>[103] But it&#039;s a supertough lefty that Damon has no chance in hell of hitting!  And if you&#039;re going to have him swing away, may as well let him do it when the count is in his favor.

Personally, I&#039;d send the runners in that situation.  Damon k&#039;s, he k&#039;s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[103] But it&#8217;s a supertough lefty that Damon has no chance in hell of hitting!  And if you&#8217;re going to have him swing away, may as well let him do it when the count is in his favor.</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;d send the runners in that situation.  Damon k&#8217;s, he k&#8217;s.</p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218666</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218666</guid>
		<description>[102] There&#039;s no way Damon could ever K while bunting. He would never bunt with two strikes!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[102] There&#8217;s no way Damon could ever K while bunting. He would never bunt with two strikes!</p>
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		<title>By: Raf</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218665</link>
		<dc:creator>Raf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218665</guid>
		<description>[100] Nope.  I&#039;ll take my chances with Damon swinging.  He could K while bunting, he could DP while bunting.

A hitter will make an out more often than not, may as well take my chances with him swinging away :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[100] Nope.  I&#8217;ll take my chances with Damon swinging.  He could K while bunting, he could DP while bunting.</p>
<p>A hitter will make an out more often than not, may as well take my chances with him swinging away <img src='http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: 51cq24</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218664</link>
		<dc:creator>51cq24</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:46:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218664</guid>
		<description>i personally think that bunting can be useful a lot of the time.  if you are in a situation where a strikeout or double play is more likely than usual, like when the batter or opposing pitcher has a high strikeout or very high ground ball rate, and when you only need one run, i would usually bunt a runner to 3rd, whether or not there&#039;s another runner on 1st.  otherwise i usually don&#039;t like any bunting, except when the batter is especially fast.  i almost never like bunting a single runner to 2nd.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i personally think that bunting can be useful a lot of the time.  if you are in a situation where a strikeout or double play is more likely than usual, like when the batter or opposing pitcher has a high strikeout or very high ground ball rate, and when you only need one run, i would usually bunt a runner to 3rd, whether or not there&#8217;s another runner on 1st.  otherwise i usually don&#8217;t like any bunting, except when the batter is especially fast.  i almost never like bunting a single runner to 2nd.</p>
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		<title>By: Bama Yankee</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218663</link>
		<dc:creator>Bama Yankee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218663</guid>
		<description>[99] So, if Damon is up with 1st and 2nd and no outs late in the game facing a tough lefty who has owned him you wouldn&#039;t want him to lay one down to move the runners over (possibly getting an infield hit) while avoiding the K and staying out of the DP?  Admittedly I stacked the deck with that scenario, but you said &quot;there shouldn&#039;t be anyone in the starting lineup that should bunt.&quot;  So I was just checking... ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[99] So, if Damon is up with 1st and 2nd and no outs late in the game facing a tough lefty who has owned him you wouldn&#8217;t want him to lay one down to move the runners over (possibly getting an infield hit) while avoiding the K and staying out of the DP?  Admittedly I stacked the deck with that scenario, but you said &#8220;there shouldn&#8217;t be anyone in the starting lineup that should bunt.&#8221;  So I was just checking&#8230; <img src='http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Raf</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218662</link>
		<dc:creator>Raf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218662</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Bunting is part of baseball and just because you bunt doesn’t always mean that you are automatically giving up an out (the defense still has to make the play…and if it is a pressure spot like the playoffs, it is certainly not always a given).&lt;/b&gt;

I would say most of the time it&#039;s a given that the defense makes the play.

Having said that, there are some players you bunt with, there are many that you don&#039;t.  With the Yankees as constructed, there shouldn&#039;t be anyone in the starting lineup that should bunt.  Not surprising, given that the offense can explode for a bunch of runs at any given time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Bunting is part of baseball and just because you bunt doesn’t always mean that you are automatically giving up an out (the defense still has to make the play…and if it is a pressure spot like the playoffs, it is certainly not always a given).</b></p>
<p>I would say most of the time it&#8217;s a given that the defense makes the play.</p>
<p>Having said that, there are some players you bunt with, there are many that you don&#8217;t.  With the Yankees as constructed, there shouldn&#8217;t be anyone in the starting lineup that should bunt.  Not surprising, given that the offense can explode for a bunch of runs at any given time.</p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218661</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218661</guid>
		<description>I just love XKCD. Here&#039;s a good baseball one (sort of):

http://xkcd.com/540/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just love XKCD. Here&#8217;s a good baseball one (sort of):</p>
<p><a href="http://xkcd.com/540/" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/540/</a></p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218660</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218660</guid>
		<description>[95] Yep, you&#039;re right, I remember that now. And I answered, &quot;It&#039;s not &lt;i&gt;giving up outs&lt;/i&gt; it&#039;s &lt;i&gt;trading&lt;/i&gt; them for advancement of the runners...&quot;

(Even though I have one of those hats and chug sabermetric coolade like it was Miller Lite.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[95] Yep, you&#8217;re right, I remember that now. And I answered, &#8220;It&#8217;s not <i>giving up outs</i> it&#8217;s <i>trading</i> them for advancement of the runners&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>(Even though I have one of those hats and chug sabermetric coolade like it was Miller Lite.)</p>
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		<title>By: Bama Yankee</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218659</link>
		<dc:creator>Bama Yankee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:12:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218659</guid>
		<description>[93] Nice.  I need to remember that one myself.  One of my Facebook friends loves to bait people with his posts.  I try not to fall for it, but sometimes I get sucked in.  Maybe I&#039;ll cut that cartoon out and tape it to my laptop...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[93] Nice.  I need to remember that one myself.  One of my Facebook friends loves to bait people with his posts.  I try not to fall for it, but sometimes I get sucked in.  Maybe I&#8217;ll cut that cartoon out and tape it to my laptop&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bama Yankee</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218658</link>
		<dc:creator>Bama Yankee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:08:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218658</guid>
		<description>[92] Thanks for the link (I&#039;ll try to take a look at that later when I have more time).  

I&#039;m not so sure everyone around here agrees that there are times when the bunt is useful.  IIRC, there are some who take the extreme view about never giving up outs...no matter what !!!11!!one one shift one...  ;-)

It&#039;s that &quot;never-bunt&quot; crowd that I wonder about.  They seem to be drinking the Bill James/sabermetric Kool-aid from one of those fancy helmets with the cup holders and staws.  Bunting is part of baseball and just because you bunt doesn&#039;t always mean that you are automatically giving up an out (the defense still has to make the play...and if it is a pressure spot like the playoffs, it is certainly not always a given).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[92] Thanks for the link (I&#8217;ll try to take a look at that later when I have more time).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not so sure everyone around here agrees that there are times when the bunt is useful.  IIRC, there are some who take the extreme view about never giving up outs&#8230;no matter what !!!11!!one one shift one&#8230;  <img src='http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>It&#8217;s that &#8220;never-bunt&#8221; crowd that I wonder about.  They seem to be drinking the Bill James/sabermetric Kool-aid from one of those fancy helmets with the cup holders and staws.  Bunting is part of baseball and just because you bunt doesn&#8217;t always mean that you are automatically giving up an out (the defense still has to make the play&#8230;and if it is a pressure spot like the playoffs, it is certainly not always a given).</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218657</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:58:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218657</guid>
		<description>[91] I respectfully disagree.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[91] I respectfully disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Emma Span</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218656</link>
		<dc:creator>Emma Span</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218656</guid>
		<description>Ha. I am once again reminded of my favorite cartoon which, if I had a cubicle, would totally be tacked onto my wall there: 

http://xkcd.com/386/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha. I am once again reminded of my favorite cartoon which, if I had a cubicle, would totally be tacked onto my wall there: </p>
<p><a href="http://xkcd.com/386/" rel="nofollow">http://xkcd.com/386/</a></p>
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		<title>By: RIYank</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218655</link>
		<dc:creator>RIYank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:50:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218655</guid>
		<description>[86] Sure, you can look at more recent Run Expectancy numbers here:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204022

Right, I&#039;ve never thought much of the &quot;taking the bat out of X&#039;s hands&quot; argument.

Obviously, everyone agrees that there are times when the bunt is useful (I just demonstrated that it is useful much of the time, with the win expectancy, right?). But if you don&#039;t start with some basic trends, basic data, then you&#039;ve got very little chance of figuring out what the best move is.

Oh, and in case this wasn&#039;t clear: I&#039;m really not concerned about Girardi calling for too many bunts. It won&#039;t happen, and even if he does call for one when he shouldn&#039;t, it&#039;s probably only a tiny loss in win expectancy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[86] Sure, you can look at more recent Run Expectancy numbers here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204022" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=204022</a></p>
<p>Right, I&#8217;ve never thought much of the &#8220;taking the bat out of X&#8217;s hands&#8221; argument.</p>
<p>Obviously, everyone agrees that there are times when the bunt is useful (I just demonstrated that it is useful much of the time, with the win expectancy, right?). But if you don&#8217;t start with some basic trends, basic data, then you&#8217;ve got very little chance of figuring out what the best move is.</p>
<p>Oh, and in case this wasn&#8217;t clear: I&#8217;m really not concerned about Girardi calling for too many bunts. It won&#8217;t happen, and even if he does call for one when he shouldn&#8217;t, it&#8217;s probably only a tiny loss in win expectancy.</p>
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		<title>By: Raf</title>
		<link>http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/09/27/oh-andy-well-you-came-and-you-gave-without-taking/#comment-218654</link>
		<dc:creator>Raf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 19:49:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=24364#comment-218654</guid>
		<description>[89] Nah, they&#039;re different people, they have to be.  People don&#039;t change their writing styles overnight.  Their demeanors are different as well; Bum Rush would hammer at a point, and his favorite target was williamny23.  Given the circumstances behind his banning, I would be very surprised that the two were one and the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[89] Nah, they&#8217;re different people, they have to be.  People don&#8217;t change their writing styles overnight.  Their demeanors are different as well; Bum Rush would hammer at a point, and his favorite target was williamny23.  Given the circumstances behind his banning, I would be very surprised that the two were one and the same.</p>
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