Comments on: Bona Fide http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/ Baseball Blog by Alex Belth about the Yankees Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:54:41 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279764 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:02:10 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279764 [26] You diminished Aomar, IMO, when you reduced his career to 5 or 6 great seasons and then steep decline...this implicitly undersold what was a long, very good (often great) career with only a few bad years tacked on at the end. You made it sound like his career was a hadful of fluky great seasons and no more, or perhaps an injury-shortened/decline-shortened flash in the pan (a la Mattingly). It was a misleading statement. [26] You diminished Aomar, IMO, when you reduced his career to 5 or 6 great seasons and then steep decline…this implicitly undersold what was a long, very good (often great) career with only a few bad years tacked on at the end. You made it sound like his career was a hadful of fluky great seasons and no more, or perhaps an injury-shortened/decline-shortened flash in the pan (a la Mattingly). It was a misleading statement.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279762 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:47:46 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279762 [22] I don't think I diminished Alomar by suggesting he was a strong Hall of Fame candidate, but not a no-brainer. [22] I don’t think I diminished Alomar by suggesting he was a strong Hall of Fame candidate, but not a no-brainer.

]]> By: MichiganYankee http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279758 MichiganYankee Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:49:59 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279758 Alomar's off-the-cliff decline at age 34 will hurt him, especially since he bit the dust in New York. As for Dale Murphy (who fell off the cliff at 32), the lingering memory of Alomar is "they call this guy a Hall of Famer"? Alomar’s off-the-cliff decline at age 34 will hurt him, especially since he bit the dust in New York. As for Dale Murphy (who fell off the cliff at 32), the lingering memory of Alomar is “they call this guy a Hall of Famer”?

]]> By: OldYanksFan http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279755 OldYanksFan Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:47:23 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279755 We really need offensive stats to have a sister stat that is position adjusted. An OPS+ of 100 may be AVERAGE... but average for who? An OPS+ of 100 would be below average for a COFer but above average for a C. This is why Jeter is so great. Not his numbers per se, but his numbers for a SS. Over RA's career, what was the average OPS+ for 2nd basemen? Without looking at stats, I would thi8nk he's definitely in. We really need offensive stats to have a sister stat that is position adjusted. An OPS+ of 100 may be AVERAGE… but average for who? An OPS+ of 100 would be below average for a COFer but above average for a C. This is why Jeter is so great. Not his numbers per se, but his numbers for a SS. Over RA’s career, what was the average OPS+ for 2nd basemen?

Without looking at stats, I would thi8nk he’s definitely in.

]]> By: Horace Clarke Era http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279751 Horace Clarke Era Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:29:10 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279751 Alomar, for those of us who watched him here in Toronto, is actually exhibit A for how fielding range stats need tweaking OR we are all blind and stupid. He was glorious in the field to watch, but his actual numbers don't dazzle. I think he's a HoF, way more than Jim Rice, say. But I also think Lou Whitaker's been jobbed a bit, and Trammel. Infielders get underrepresented in some ways today - there was some over representation of so-so hitters in the old days, seems to me. The spitting: yes, it is probably the first thing most casual fans associate with his name. But there are members of the Ku Klux Klan in the Hall, you know... Alomar, for those of us who watched him here in Toronto, is actually exhibit A for how fielding range stats need tweaking OR we are all blind and stupid. He was glorious in the field to watch, but his actual numbers don’t dazzle. I think he’s a HoF, way more than Jim Rice, say. But I also think Lou Whitaker’s been jobbed a bit, and Trammel. Infielders get underrepresented in some ways today – there was some over representation of so-so hitters in the old days, seems to me.

The spitting: yes, it is probably the first thing most casual fans associate with his name. But there are members of the Ku Klux Klan in the Hall, you know…

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279748 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:56:19 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279748 [20] Whoops, forgot about Kent. Yes, my math was quick and dirty, but the point stands that Alomar's career was more than just 5 or 6 great seasons then a precipitous drop off. His ten best seasons match up well with Jeter's ten best (one of which was injury shortened)--I think that's a fair statement. Further, their career stats right now are similar (though Jeter of course has a goodly edge): Alomar: 17 seasons, 2724 H, 210 HR, 474 SB (114 CS), .300/.371/.443/.814, 116 OPS+ Jeter: 15 seasons, 2747 H, 224 HR, 305 SB (80 CS), .317/.388/.459/.847, 121 OPS+ My main point was that you were too quick to dismiss (or better, diminish) Alomar's career. again, I think that I made a fair point. [20] Whoops, forgot about Kent.

Yes, my math was quick and dirty, but the point stands that Alomar’s career was more than just 5 or 6 great seasons then a precipitous drop off. His ten best seasons match up well with Jeter’s ten best (one of which was injury shortened)–I think that’s a fair statement.

Further, their career stats right now are similar (though Jeter of course has a goodly edge):

Alomar: 17 seasons, 2724 H, 210 HR, 474 SB (114 CS), .300/.371/.443/.814, 116 OPS+
Jeter: 15 seasons, 2747 H, 224 HR, 305 SB (80 CS), .317/.388/.459/.847, 121 OPS+

My main point was that you were too quick to dismiss (or better, diminish) Alomar’s career. again, I think that I made a fair point.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279744 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:28:35 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279744 [19] Alomar's first year of eligibility is this year, so it's premature to talk about what "is keeping him out". [19] Alomar’s first year of eligibility is this year, so it’s premature to talk about what “is keeping him out”.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279743 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:26:36 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279743 [15] I don't see more than 5-6 great years in your list. Alomar had only 6 seasons with an OPS+ above 116 (Jeter has nine) and one of those was in only 112 games. You also can't simply average OPS+ (an OPS+ of 100 in 600ABs and 200 in 100ABs doesn't average to 150). As for the best 2B of a decade, I guess it depends on what 10 years you use. For example, I think a strong case for Kent over Alomar could be made. While I would lean toward voting for Alomar, I don't think he is a slam dunk and wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't make it on the first ballot. [15] I don’t see more than 5-6 great years in your list. Alomar had only 6 seasons with an OPS+ above 116 (Jeter has nine) and one of those was in only 112 games. You also can’t simply average OPS+ (an OPS+ of 100 in 600ABs and 200 in 100ABs doesn’t average to 150).

As for the best 2B of a decade, I guess it depends on what 10 years you use. For example, I think a strong case for Kent over Alomar could be made.

While I would lean toward voting for Alomar, I don’t think he is a slam dunk and wouldn’t be shocked if he doesn’t make it on the first ballot.

]]> By: thedmondsjr http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279741 thedmondsjr Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:04:35 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279741 Very little question that Alomar's play earned him a plaque, but the spitting incident, my guess, is preventing him from getting the necessary support from the morality judges who vote on such things. Spitting is such a vile and low act for a sportsman, and Alomar's reputation was forever stained. For lack of any other evidence, it appears that one moment of stupid anger is keeping him out of the HOF. Very little question that Alomar’s play earned him a plaque, but the spitting incident, my guess, is preventing him from getting the necessary support from the morality judges who vote on such things. Spitting is such a vile and low act for a sportsman, and Alomar’s reputation was forever stained. For lack of any other evidence, it appears that one moment of stupid anger is keeping him out of the HOF.

]]> By: Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/comment-page-1/#comment-279740 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:04:26 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-279740 Alomar is easily one of the 10-best 2B of all time, easy HOFer. Very complete player. [13] I don't follow much football, but Whoahhh!!! 4th & 2 from your OWN 28yrd line, in the 4th quarter? I guess winning 3 Supes gives you the legitimacy to do that but really, seems inexplicable... Alomar is easily one of the 10-best 2B of all time, easy HOFer. Very complete player.

[13] I don’t follow much football, but Whoahhh!!! 4th & 2 from your OWN 28yrd line, in the 4th quarter? I guess winning 3 Supes gives you the legitimacy to do that but really, seems inexplicable…

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