Comments on: Bona Fide http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/ Development site for Bronx Banter Blog's upcoming look and feel Thu, 09 Feb 2012 20:54:02 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247598 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 19:02:10 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247598 [26] You diminished Aomar, IMO, when you reduced his career to 5 or 6 great seasons and then steep decline...this implicitly undersold what was a long, very good (often great) career with only a few bad years tacked on at the end. You made it sound like his career was a hadful of fluky great seasons and no more, or perhaps an injury-shortened/decline-shortened flash in the pan (a la Mattingly). It was a misleading statement. [26] You diminished Aomar, IMO, when you reduced his career to 5 or 6 great seasons and then steep decline…this implicitly undersold what was a long, very good (often great) career with only a few bad years tacked on at the end. You made it sound like his career was a hadful of fluky great seasons and no more, or perhaps an injury-shortened/decline-shortened flash in the pan (a la Mattingly). It was a misleading statement.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247597 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:47:46 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247597 [22] I don't think I diminished Alomar by suggesting he was a strong Hall of Fame candidate, but not a no-brainer. [22] I don’t think I diminished Alomar by suggesting he was a strong Hall of Fame candidate, but not a no-brainer.

]]> By: MichiganYankee http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247596 MichiganYankee Mon, 16 Nov 2009 17:49:59 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247596 Alomar's off-the-cliff decline at age 34 will hurt him, especially since he bit the dust in New York. As for Dale Murphy (who fell off the cliff at 32), the lingering memory of Alomar is "they call this guy a Hall of Famer"? Alomar’s off-the-cliff decline at age 34 will hurt him, especially since he bit the dust in New York. As for Dale Murphy (who fell off the cliff at 32), the lingering memory of Alomar is “they call this guy a Hall of Famer”?

]]> By: OldYanksFan http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247595 OldYanksFan Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:47:23 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247595 We really need offensive stats to have a sister stat that is position adjusted. An OPS+ of 100 may be AVERAGE... but average for who? An OPS+ of 100 would be below average for a COFer but above average for a C. This is why Jeter is so great. Not his numbers per se, but his numbers for a SS. Over RA's career, what was the average OPS+ for 2nd basemen? Without looking at stats, I would thi8nk he's definitely in. We really need offensive stats to have a sister stat that is position adjusted. An OPS+ of 100 may be AVERAGE… but average for who? An OPS+ of 100 would be below average for a COFer but above average for a C. This is why Jeter is so great. Not his numbers per se, but his numbers for a SS. Over RA’s career, what was the average OPS+ for 2nd basemen?

Without looking at stats, I would thi8nk he’s definitely in.

]]> By: Horace Clarke Era http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247594 Horace Clarke Era Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:29:10 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247594 Alomar, for those of us who watched him here in Toronto, is actually exhibit A for how fielding range stats need tweaking OR we are all blind and stupid. He was glorious in the field to watch, but his actual numbers don't dazzle. I think he's a HoF, way more than Jim Rice, say. But I also think Lou Whitaker's been jobbed a bit, and Trammel. Infielders get underrepresented in some ways today - there was some over representation of so-so hitters in the old days, seems to me. The spitting: yes, it is probably the first thing most casual fans associate with his name. But there are members of the Ku Klux Klan in the Hall, you know... Alomar, for those of us who watched him here in Toronto, is actually exhibit A for how fielding range stats need tweaking OR we are all blind and stupid. He was glorious in the field to watch, but his actual numbers don’t dazzle. I think he’s a HoF, way more than Jim Rice, say. But I also think Lou Whitaker’s been jobbed a bit, and Trammel. Infielders get underrepresented in some ways today – there was some over representation of so-so hitters in the old days, seems to me.

The spitting: yes, it is probably the first thing most casual fans associate with his name. But there are members of the Ku Klux Klan in the Hall, you know…

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247593 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 15:56:19 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247593 [20] Whoops, forgot about Kent. Yes, my math was quick and dirty, but the point stands that Alomar's career was more than just 5 or 6 great seasons then a precipitous drop off. His ten best seasons match up well with Jeter's ten best (one of which was injury shortened)--I think that's a fair statement. Further, their career stats right now are similar (though Jeter of course has a goodly edge): Alomar: 17 seasons, 2724 H, 210 HR, 474 SB (114 CS), .300/.371/.443/.814, 116 OPS+ Jeter: 15 seasons, 2747 H, 224 HR, 305 SB (80 CS), .317/.388/.459/.847, 121 OPS+ My main point was that you were too quick to dismiss (or better, diminish) Alomar's career. again, I think that I made a fair point. [20] Whoops, forgot about Kent.

Yes, my math was quick and dirty, but the point stands that Alomar’s career was more than just 5 or 6 great seasons then a precipitous drop off. His ten best seasons match up well with Jeter’s ten best (one of which was injury shortened)–I think that’s a fair statement.

Further, their career stats right now are similar (though Jeter of course has a goodly edge):

Alomar: 17 seasons, 2724 H, 210 HR, 474 SB (114 CS), .300/.371/.443/.814, 116 OPS+
Jeter: 15 seasons, 2747 H, 224 HR, 305 SB (80 CS), .317/.388/.459/.847, 121 OPS+

My main point was that you were too quick to dismiss (or better, diminish) Alomar’s career. again, I think that I made a fair point.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247592 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:28:35 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247592 [19] Alomar's first year of eligibility is this year, so it's premature to talk about what "is keeping him out". [19] Alomar’s first year of eligibility is this year, so it’s premature to talk about what “is keeping him out”.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247591 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:26:36 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247591 [15] I don't see more than 5-6 great years in your list. Alomar had only 6 seasons with an OPS+ above 116 (Jeter has nine) and one of those was in only 112 games. You also can't simply average OPS+ (an OPS+ of 100 in 600ABs and 200 in 100ABs doesn't average to 150). As for the best 2B of a decade, I guess it depends on what 10 years you use. For example, I think a strong case for Kent over Alomar could be made. While I would lean toward voting for Alomar, I don't think he is a slam dunk and wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't make it on the first ballot. [15] I don’t see more than 5-6 great years in your list. Alomar had only 6 seasons with an OPS+ above 116 (Jeter has nine) and one of those was in only 112 games. You also can’t simply average OPS+ (an OPS+ of 100 in 600ABs and 200 in 100ABs doesn’t average to 150).

As for the best 2B of a decade, I guess it depends on what 10 years you use. For example, I think a strong case for Kent over Alomar could be made.

While I would lean toward voting for Alomar, I don’t think he is a slam dunk and wouldn’t be shocked if he doesn’t make it on the first ballot.

]]> By: thedmondsjr http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247590 thedmondsjr Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:04:35 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247590 Very little question that Alomar's play earned him a plaque, but the spitting incident, my guess, is preventing him from getting the necessary support from the morality judges who vote on such things. Spitting is such a vile and low act for a sportsman, and Alomar's reputation was forever stained. For lack of any other evidence, it appears that one moment of stupid anger is keeping him out of the HOF. Very little question that Alomar’s play earned him a plaque, but the spitting incident, my guess, is preventing him from getting the necessary support from the morality judges who vote on such things. Spitting is such a vile and low act for a sportsman, and Alomar’s reputation was forever stained. For lack of any other evidence, it appears that one moment of stupid anger is keeping him out of the HOF.

]]> By: Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247589 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO Mon, 16 Nov 2009 07:04:26 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247589 Alomar is easily one of the 10-best 2B of all time, easy HOFer. Very complete player. [13] I don't follow much football, but Whoahhh!!! 4th & 2 from your OWN 28yrd line, in the 4th quarter? I guess winning 3 Supes gives you the legitimacy to do that but really, seems inexplicable... Alomar is easily one of the 10-best 2B of all time, easy HOFer. Very complete player.

[13] I don’t follow much football, but Whoahhh!!! 4th & 2 from your OWN 28yrd line, in the 4th quarter? I guess winning 3 Supes gives you the legitimacy to do that but really, seems inexplicable…

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247588 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:27:35 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247588 [16] And Jeter will be a HOFer, and Larkin and Trammell should be as well. [16] And Jeter will be a HOFer, and Larkin and Trammell should be as well.

]]> By: Evil Empire http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247587 Evil Empire Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:22:02 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247587 FWIW, Alomar's career similarity scores... 1. Derek Jeter (892) 2. Barry Larkin (877) 3. Lou Whitaker (858) 4. Frankie Frisch (855) * 5. Julio Franco (850) 6. Ivan Rodriguez (840) 7. Ryne Sandberg (835) * 8. Alan Trammell (833) 9. Joe Morgan (830) * 10. Ted Simmons (822) * signifies HOF'er. FWIW, Alomar’s career similarity scores…

1. Derek Jeter (892)
2. Barry Larkin (877)
3. Lou Whitaker (858)
4. Frankie Frisch (855) *
5. Julio Franco (850)
6. Ivan Rodriguez (840)
7. Ryne Sandberg (835) *
8. Alan Trammell (833)
9. Joe Morgan (830) *
10. Ted Simmons (822)

* signifies HOF’er.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247586 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:19:54 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247586 [14] I don't know, I think you're being a bit tough on him. Here are Alomar's top 10 seasons by OPS+: Alomar: 150, 140, 139, 136, 134, 129, 116, 115, 114, 109 (average= 128.2) Player X: 153, 132, 132, 128, 127, 125, 125, 123, 121, 114 (average = 128.0) Player X is none other than Derek Jeter. Now, I am not saying Alomar is Jeter's equal, he's not. But I think that Alomar was rather better than "5 or 6 great seasons). Alomar was almost certainly one of the two best 2B of his era (the other being Biggio), unless I have forgotten someone. Top two at your position for a decade+ is a pretty strong HOF resume. [14] I don’t know, I think you’re being a bit tough on him. Here are Alomar’s top 10 seasons by OPS+:

Alomar: 150, 140, 139, 136, 134, 129, 116, 115, 114, 109 (average= 128.2)
Player X: 153, 132, 132, 128, 127, 125, 125, 123, 121, 114 (average = 128.0)

Player X is none other than Derek Jeter. Now, I am not saying Alomar is Jeter’s equal, he’s not. But I think that Alomar was rather better than “5 or 6 great seasons).

Alomar was almost certainly one of the two best 2B of his era (the other being Biggio), unless I have forgotten someone. Top two at your position for a decade+ is a pretty strong HOF resume.

]]> By: williamnyy23 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247585 williamnyy23 Mon, 16 Nov 2009 05:00:21 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247585 I am not saying he isn't a hall of famer, but Alomar really only had 5 or 6 great seasons, declined quickly and may have been overrated as a defensive player. He is a pretty good candidate, but I don't think he is a slam dunk. I am not saying he isn’t a hall of famer, but Alomar really only had 5 or 6 great seasons, declined quickly and may have been overrated as a defensive player. He is a pretty good candidate, but I don’t think he is a slam dunk.

]]> By: Diane Firstman http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247584 Diane Firstman Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:58:04 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247584 Bill Belichek just pulled a "Girardi bullpen outsmarting oneself manuever" .... Bill Belichek just pulled a “Girardi bullpen outsmarting oneself manuever” ….

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247583 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:30:34 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247583 [9] Molitor got in because he got 3,000 hits, which still seems to be a magic number regardless of position. (He also played more games in the field than at DH, though he was basically a full-time DH for the last 8 years of his career). Interestingly, when you look at his numbers I am not convinced he deserves to be in the HOF, save for the longevity/3000-hit thing. How about this comparison: name, seasons, G dh, G field, HR, H, slash stats, OPS+ baines, 22, 1644, 1061, 384, 2866, .289/.356/.465/.820, 120 molitor, 21, 1174, 1495, 234, 3319, .306/.369/.448/.81, 122 Baines and Molitor were essentially the same hitters over the course of their careers, except Baines had more HRs but came up 133 H short of 3,000. Yet no one talks about Baines for the HOF. [9] Molitor got in because he got 3,000 hits, which still seems to be a magic number regardless of position. (He also played more games in the field than at DH, though he was basically a full-time DH for the last 8 years of his career).

Interestingly, when you look at his numbers I am not convinced he deserves to be in the HOF, save for the longevity/3000-hit thing. How about this comparison:

name, seasons, G dh, G field, HR, H, slash stats, OPS+
baines, 22, 1644, 1061, 384, 2866, .289/.356/.465/.820, 120
molitor, 21, 1174, 1495, 234, 3319, .306/.369/.448/.81, 122

Baines and Molitor were essentially the same hitters over the course of their careers, except Baines had more HRs but came up 133 H short of 3,000. Yet no one talks about Baines for the HOF.

]]> By: thelarmis http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247582 thelarmis Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:07:37 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247582 here's a decent article on the yankees' offseason needs. towards the end, it champions for cameron on a 1-yr deal. i'm cool with that, too... http://tinyurl.com/ygtu5bg oh, and yeah, alomar's a hall of famer. how's that for sound statistical analysis?! ; ) here’s a decent article on the yankees’ offseason needs. towards the end, it champions for cameron on a 1-yr deal. i’m cool with that, too…

http://tinyurl.com/ygtu5bg

oh, and yeah, alomar’s a hall of famer. how’s that for sound statistical analysis?! ; )

]]> By: RagingTartabull http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247581 RagingTartabull Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:04:40 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247581 Edgar vs the Yanks in the '95 ALDS: ..571/.667/1.000 with 2 homers and 10 RBI's. Thats just obscene. Edgar vs the Yanks in the ’95 ALDS:

..571/.667/1.000 with 2 homers and 10 RBI’s. Thats just obscene.

]]> By: RagingTartabull http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247580 RagingTartabull Mon, 16 Nov 2009 04:01:56 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247580 [7] With the DH thing I'm just talking about people who will refuse to vote for a DH on principle, to me that just isn't right. I mean Molitor is in as (for all intents and purposes) a DH, so it should be a moot point. McGriff is fascinating to me though. 500 has lost some of its luster, but with the whole steroids thing I think the guys who got to it (or in McG's case, <i>almost</i> there) cleanly are even more impressive. Guys like Thome and Thomas fall into that category. You look at McGriff's numbers and its clear that the dude could just flat out hit. Baseball Reference has his most comparable players as Stargell and McCovey...not bad. [7] With the DH thing I’m just talking about people who will refuse to vote for a DH on principle, to me that just isn’t right. I mean Molitor is in as (for all intents and purposes) a DH, so it should be a moot point.

McGriff is fascinating to me though. 500 has lost some of its luster, but with the whole steroids thing I think the guys who got to it (or in McG’s case, almost there) cleanly are even more impressive. Guys like Thome and Thomas fall into that category.

You look at McGriff’s numbers and its clear that the dude could just flat out hit. Baseball Reference has his most comparable players as Stargell and McCovey…not bad.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2009/11/15/bona-fide/#comment-247579 monkeypants Mon, 16 Nov 2009 03:59:47 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=26294#comment-247579 [7] <i>What was his career average against the Yankees? I honestly don’t recall him ever making out against us.</i> ha-ha. I know what you mean. In fact, in 138 games v. the Yankees, he hit .317/.423/.542/.965, so yeah he was pretty awesome against them. What did he do in the ALDS in 1995? Didn't he hit like .750 ? [7] What was his career average against the Yankees? I honestly don’t recall him ever making out against us.

ha-ha. I know what you mean. In fact, in 138 games v. the Yankees, he hit .317/.423/.542/.965, so yeah he was pretty awesome against them. What did he do in the ALDS in 1995? Didn’t he hit like .750 ?

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