Comments on: The Man Who Wasn't There…(Who Cares?) http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/ Development site for Bronx Banter Blog's upcoming look and feel Sun, 19 May 2013 06:50:25 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Raf http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72909 Raf Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:56:13 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72909 [33] AJ may still be under the weather. [33] AJ may still be under the weather.

]]> By: The Hawk http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72908 The Hawk Wed, 06 Apr 2011 20:06:52 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72908 [32] Sure but I'd figure the same for AJ too [32] Sure but I’d figure the same for AJ too

]]> By: Raf http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72907 Raf Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:47:28 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72907 [31] Still, can't say I'm surprised they wanted to keep CC on his regular turn. [31] Still, can’t say I’m surprised they wanted to keep CC on his regular turn.

]]> By: The Hawk http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72906 The Hawk Wed, 06 Apr 2011 18:12:59 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72906 [30] Really? That's sort of pitiful in April [30] Really? That’s sort of pitiful in April

]]> By: cult of basebaal http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72905 cult of basebaal Wed, 06 Apr 2011 17:57:50 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72905 [29] To line up Sabathia for this weekend's series against the Red Sox. [29] To line up Sabathia for this weekend’s series against the Red Sox.

]]> By: The Hawk http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72904 The Hawk Wed, 06 Apr 2011 17:56:13 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72904 Anyone know why they pitched Sabathia last night, and Garcia tonight? Anyone know why they pitched Sabathia last night, and Garcia tonight?

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72903 RIYank Wed, 06 Apr 2011 16:20:02 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72903 [26] Yeah, maybe that's right. I was thinking Sutter, but it wasn't till much later that there was a pitcher on a team assigned to most of the 'closing' situations. Lee Smith, maybe? Franco? [26] Yeah, maybe that’s right. I was thinking Sutter, but it wasn’t till much later that there was a pitcher on a team assigned to most of the ‘closing’ situations. Lee Smith, maybe? Franco?

]]> By: Sliced Bread http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72902 Sliced Bread Wed, 06 Apr 2011 16:08:21 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72902 intelligent arguments all around, as always. I didn't see the inning. Went to sleep with visions of a 4-zip victory in my head. But based on what I've read and heard about Soriano's crappy inning, I'm siding with those who observed that it was completely ARod's fault. intelligent arguments all around, as always.
I didn’t see the inning. Went to sleep with visions of a 4-zip victory in my head. But based on what I’ve read and heard about Soriano’s crappy inning, I’m siding with those who observed that it was completely ARod’s fault.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72901 monkeypants Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:58:31 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72901 [25] The trend was definitely moving in that direction in the eighties, but I see the contemporary "closer" emerging really with Eckersley in 1988. In 1985, for example, more than ten pitchers threw ten+ complete games. Reardon led the league with 41 saves in over 80 INN pitched. He came into 35 games in the 7th or 8th inning. When you look closely at it, it really is remarkable just *how* recently it has been since all teams have gone to the "closer" model (and even more recently, the subsequent development of the EIGHTH INNING GUY). [25] The trend was definitely moving in that direction in the eighties, but I see the contemporary “closer” emerging really with Eckersley in 1988.

In 1985, for example, more than ten pitchers threw ten+ complete games. Reardon led the league with 41 saves in over 80 INN pitched. He came into 35 games in the 7th or 8th inning. When you look closely at it, it really is remarkable just *how* recently it has been since all teams have gone to the “closer” model (and even more recently, the subsequent development of the EIGHTH INNING GUY).

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72900 RIYank Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:46:54 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72900 I don't think there's been name-calling, Alex; if I'm guilty, my apologies. I only hate the play. [21] I'd say more like thirty years, but otherwise, fully agree. I don’t think there’s been name-calling, Alex; if I’m guilty, my apologies. I only hate the play.

[21] I’d say more like thirty years, but otherwise, fully agree.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72899 monkeypants Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:42:46 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72899 [23] Whoa...was anyone name calling? I was being sarcastic by "damning" RIYank for, as usual, writing a better comment than my own. [23] Whoa…was anyone name calling? I was being sarcastic by “damning” RIYank for, as usual, writing a better comment than my own.

]]> By: Alex Belth http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72898 Alex Belth Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:39:36 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72898 Agrugments are fine, guys, just remember no name calling---at each other. Agrugments are fine, guys, just remember no name calling—at each other.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72897 monkeypants Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:39:32 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72897 [20] As usual, you beat me to it and in a far more eloquent and economical fashion. Damn you!! [20] As usual, you beat me to it and in a far more eloquent and economical fashion. Damn you!!

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72896 monkeypants Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:38:12 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72896 [19] <i>The people who do this for a living don’t do it your way. Why do you think that is? All morons?</i> Well, possibly the same reason that the same people who do (did) this for a living used to call for bunts far more frequently especially in "fixed" situations, until more and more people figured out that giving up outs is a bad play most of the time. In sports generally, but perhaps especially in baseball, it takes a long, long time to overcome accepted orthodoxy. For a variety of reasons, within the last 20 years or so, managers have decided to use their ace relievers only as "closers" (only in the ninth in a so-called save situation) rather than as "firemen" (in the most critical moment late in the game even if not the ninth). And yet teams do not win a higher percentage of games now when leading late than they did in the before times. Eventually the dogma of having an exclusive "closer" will be displaced, and not too soon. [19] The people who do this for a living don’t do it your way. Why do you think that is? All morons?

Well, possibly the same reason that the same people who do (did) this for a living used to call for bunts far more frequently especially in “fixed” situations, until more and more people figured out that giving up outs is a bad play most of the time. In sports generally, but perhaps especially in baseball, it takes a long, long time to overcome accepted orthodoxy.

For a variety of reasons, within the last 20 years or so, managers have decided to use their ace relievers only as “closers” (only in the ninth in a so-called save situation) rather than as “firemen” (in the most critical moment late in the game even if not the ninth). And yet teams do not win a higher percentage of games now when leading late than they did in the before times.

Eventually the dogma of having an exclusive “closer” will be displaced, and not too soon.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72895 RIYank Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:36:32 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72895 [19] Wait, so, if Mariano had pitched to Mauer last night, then what would the problem have been in August? or September? I think most managers are just like Girardi: they are hidebound by certain traditional but badly mistaken notions. This leads them to do very dumb things sometimes. Not all managers do this, but the large majority do. As it happens, this tradition is not really all that traditional. The 'closer' role is fairly recent. Think of Mike Marshall. Would Walter Alston hesitate to bring him into the most important situation of the game, in the eighth inning? I doubt it. I hope not. [19] Wait, so, if Mariano had pitched to Mauer last night, then what would the problem have been in August? or September?

I think most managers are just like Girardi: they are hidebound by certain traditional but badly mistaken notions. This leads them to do very dumb things sometimes. Not all managers do this, but the large majority do.

As it happens, this tradition is not really all that traditional. The ‘closer’ role is fairly recent. Think of Mike Marshall. Would Walter Alston hesitate to bring him into the most important situation of the game, in the eighth inning? I doubt it. I hope not.

]]> By: flycaster http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72894 flycaster Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:25:26 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72894 [17] See, you want Girardi to manage every game like it's the 7th game of the World Series. You have no interest in the personnel management issues that are manifest when guys play every day for 6 months. Suit yourself. Tell you this. The people who do this for a living don't do it your way. Why do you think that is? All morons? [17] See, you want Girardi to manage every game like it’s the 7th game of the World Series. You have no interest in the personnel management issues that are manifest when guys play every day for 6 months. Suit yourself. Tell you this. The people who do this for a living don’t do it your way. Why do you think that is? All morons?

]]> By: Alex Belth http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72893 Alex Belth Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:16:10 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72893 Great point about Swisher. I wondered about that too but then just chalked it up to the wind. But he absolutely should have been there. Great point about Swisher. I wondered about that too but then just chalked it up to the wind. But he absolutely should have been there.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72892 RIYank Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:12:21 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72892 [15] Okay, fair point, I see the distinction. [16] Yeah, I think that's all bullshit. If you're telling me that Rivera just couldn't handle coming into a tense situation in the eighth with two out, yeah, I'm not buying that. I would have gone to D-Rob in the eighth, too, but that wasn't what I (or anyone) criticized Girardi for. [15] Okay, fair point, I see the distinction.

[16] Yeah, I think that’s all bullshit. If you’re telling me that Rivera just couldn’t handle coming into a tense situation in the eighth with two out, yeah, I’m not buying that.

I would have gone to D-Rob in the eighth, too, but that wasn’t what I (or anyone) criticized Girardi for.

]]> By: flycaster http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72891 flycaster Wed, 06 Apr 2011 15:03:56 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72891 [13] No one who actually plays and manages in MLB is going to agree with the idea that you bring in your closer at any point in the game where a hit can hurt you. Fans get caught up in the emotion of every moment in every game (that's why they're fans). They don't have the slightest notion of how to take care of a bullpen over a 162-game season. These guys are human and it's been proven over and over that they need to know with a reasonable degree of certainty what their role is. IIRC, the Red Sox tried that "stat geek" approach, you know, deploy your best reliever in the highest leverage situation, and it fell apart like a bunch of Lincoln Logs. Hey, Sori wasn't on and Robby got beat by a bloop. That's baseball. Personally, I would have brought in Robby to start the 8th. he was already warmed up, he was fresher, and he needs work. But I don't say Girardi is some moron because he went another way. [13] No one who actually plays and manages in MLB is going to agree with the idea that you bring in your closer at any point in the game where a hit can hurt you. Fans get caught up in the emotion of every moment in every game (that’s why they’re fans). They don’t have the slightest notion of how to take care of a bullpen over a 162-game season. These guys are human and it’s been proven over and over that they need to know with a reasonable degree of certainty what their role is. IIRC, the Red Sox tried that “stat geek” approach, you know, deploy your best reliever in the highest leverage situation, and it fell apart like a bunch of Lincoln Logs. Hey, Sori wasn’t on and Robby got beat by a bloop. That’s baseball.
Personally, I would have brought in Robby to start the 8th. he was already warmed up, he was fresher, and he needs work. But I don’t say Girardi is some moron because he went another way.

]]> By: Jon DeRosa http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/04/06/the-politics-of-dancing/#comment-72890 Jon DeRosa Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:53:31 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=52271#comment-72890 [13] I think [10] is saying that a MLB caliber RF should be able to catch that ball and that there should be no debate about blaming swisher for not catching it. but my point is slightly different. he obviously could not have caught it, whether it was a bad jump, a misread, a ball in the lights, whatever, he had very little chance to catch the ball once he got near it. once it was clear to him that he would have to dive, which is many, many steps before the actual dive, he's got to pull up and keep it in front. [13] I think [10] is saying that a MLB caliber RF should be able to catch that ball and that there should be no debate about blaming swisher for not catching it.

but my point is slightly different. he obviously could not have caught it, whether it was a bad jump, a misread, a ball in the lights, whatever, he had very little chance to catch the ball once he got near it.

once it was clear to him that he would have to dive, which is many, many steps before the actual dive, he’s got to pull up and keep it in front.

]]>