Comments on: Color By Numbers: Hip Hip Jorge http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/ Development site for Bronx Banter Blog's upcoming look and feel Sat, 18 May 2013 03:01:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: Jon DeRosa http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268856 Jon DeRosa Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:15:06 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268856 [7] As a % of his total games played, Simmon caught a little less often than Posada. But Simmons started behind the plate 1578 times, Posada only 1450. And Simmons acquired more bWAR in his catching years (18-32), 49.4, than Posada did in his entire career, even if we eliminated 2011 for Posada, in which he produced negative bWAR. Posada has the more impressive power and patience, and the rings, but alot of that is about the context (hitters' era and yankee $). if someone wanted to make a strong argument that Posada had to get in line behind Simmons, would be hard to refute. [7] As a % of his total games played, Simmon caught a little less often than Posada. But Simmons started behind the plate 1578 times, Posada only 1450. And Simmons acquired more bWAR in his catching years (18-32), 49.4, than Posada did in his entire career, even if we eliminated 2011 for Posada, in which he produced negative bWAR.

Posada has the more impressive power and patience, and the rings, but alot of that is about the context (hitters’ era and yankee $). if someone wanted to make a strong argument that Posada had to get in line behind Simmons, would be hard to refute.

]]> By: William J. http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268851 William J. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:10:59 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268851 [5] I do regard Posada's career as remarkable. If there's a complaint, you could say it was a year or two too short. [6] If Posada was widely regarded as even just an above average defender, he would be a lock. It's his defense that weighs down the average. Also, one note on Simmons. When considering his case, you have to take into account that he played about 2 seasons at a position other than catcher. [5] I do regard Posada’s career as remarkable. If there’s a complaint, you could say it was a year or two too short.

[6] If Posada was widely regarded as even just an above average defender, he would be a lock. It’s his defense that weighs down the average.

Also, one note on Simmons. When considering his case, you have to take into account that he played about 2 seasons at a position other than catcher.

]]> By: Jon DeRosa http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268847 Jon DeRosa Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:21:09 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268847 i tried to check out all the top modern catchers like william did above and here are a couple of instructive lists: avg WAR bench 76.5 (hof) fisk 70.9 (hof) irod 70.8 (pending) carter 69.4 (hof) berra 66.7 (hof) piazza 62.9 (pending) dickey 59.1 (hof) simmons 55.8 (out) cochrane 53.6 (hof) hartnett 53.2 (hof) freehan 48.1 (out) posada 46.4 (pending) munson 43.9 (out) porter 42.0 (out) parrish 41.9 (out) campy 39.7 (hof) by this list, posada seems to need a little help from somewhere. not much, but a little. wRC+ (prefer this stat since it is park and era adjusted) piazza 140 (pending) cochrane 133 (hof) dickey 127 (hof) hartnett 127 (hof) bench 125 (hof) berra 124 (hof) campy 123 (hof) posada 122 (pending) fisk 117 (hof) simmons 115 (out) munson 115 (out) carter 114 (hof) freehan 113 (out) porter 112 (out) irod 104 (pending) parrish 104 (out) he seems like a better fit here as a hitter only, outside of the coutning stats. adjusting out his big offensive era he still snuggles in the lower end of a solid HOF block and he's a lot closer to the guys above him than the ones below him. sometimes it's useful to look backward. he was at the center of one of the winningest team evers. that's got to count for enough to put his borderline case over the top. i tried to check out all the top modern catchers like william did above and here are a couple of instructive lists:

avg WAR
bench 76.5 (hof)
fisk 70.9 (hof)
irod 70.8 (pending)
carter 69.4 (hof)
berra 66.7 (hof)
piazza 62.9 (pending)
dickey 59.1 (hof)
simmons 55.8 (out)
cochrane 53.6 (hof)
hartnett 53.2 (hof)
freehan 48.1 (out)
posada 46.4 (pending)
munson 43.9 (out)
porter 42.0 (out)
parrish 41.9 (out)
campy 39.7 (hof)

by this list, posada seems to need a little help from somewhere. not much, but a little.

wRC+ (prefer this stat since it is park and era adjusted)
piazza 140 (pending)
cochrane 133 (hof)
dickey 127 (hof)
hartnett 127 (hof)
bench 125 (hof)
berra 124 (hof)
campy 123 (hof)
posada 122 (pending)
fisk 117 (hof)
simmons 115 (out)
munson 115 (out)
carter 114 (hof)
freehan 113 (out)
porter 112 (out)
irod 104 (pending)
parrish 104 (out)

he seems like a better fit here as a hitter only, outside of the coutning stats. adjusting out his big offensive era he still snuggles in the lower end of a solid HOF block and he’s a lot closer to the guys above him than the ones below him.

sometimes it’s useful to look backward. he was at the center of one of the winningest team evers. that’s got to count for enough to put his borderline case over the top.

]]> By: Ben http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268846 Ben Fri, 11 Nov 2011 14:01:32 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268846 I can't argue with the statistics. But having watched Jorge for the passed decade, I can't see him in the HOF. Great Yankee, much loved, but I always feel the HOF should be reserved for something remarkable. Jorge just had too many holes in his defense and base running to give me the feeling of remarkable. I think the Yanks should get moving on honoring him however. I can’t argue with the statistics. But having watched Jorge for the passed decade, I can’t see him in the HOF. Great Yankee, much loved, but I always feel the HOF should be reserved for something remarkable. Jorge just had too many holes in his defense and base running to give me the feeling of remarkable.

I think the Yanks should get moving on honoring him however.

]]> By: Jon DeRosa http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268842 Jon DeRosa Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:35:25 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268842 [3] yeah, you are right, he had two or three season which deserve the brilliant label. his total PS #s are kind of a far cry from his reg season totals, mostly in the power dept, so that is what i meant. again, you're right he had some moments. [3] yeah, you are right, he had two or three season which deserve the brilliant label. his total PS #s are kind of a far cry from his reg season totals, mostly in the power dept, so that is what i meant. again, you’re right he had some moments.

]]> By: William J. http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268841 William J. Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:30:52 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268841 [1] I agree with your point about Posada being in a kind of limbo. His candidacy could really break either way. My fear is he will be discounted because of how poorly he played defense at the end of his career. There are two points with which I disagree. I do think Posada had two or three seasons that rise to the standard of brilliant, which is admittedly low for a Hall of Famer, but more than never. Also, I wouldn't say he was "mostly" terrible in the postseason. However, he was very inconsistent. He had seven series with an OPS of at least .900 and six below .600, for example. At a combined rate of .745, his performance may have been close to "league average" for the post season, and actually pretty solid for a catcher. I don't think his post season performance will help him, but I also don't think it will hurt (which is why I didn't mention them above, but probably should have for more context). [1] I agree with your point about Posada being in a kind of limbo. His candidacy could really break either way. My fear is he will be discounted because of how poorly he played defense at the end of his career.

There are two points with which I disagree. I do think Posada had two or three seasons that rise to the standard of brilliant, which is admittedly low for a Hall of Famer, but more than never. Also, I wouldn’t say he was “mostly” terrible in the postseason. However, he was very inconsistent. He had seven series with an OPS of at least .900 and six below .600, for example. At a combined rate of .745, his performance may have been close to “league average” for the post season, and actually pretty solid for a catcher. I don’t think his post season performance will help him, but I also don’t think it will hurt (which is why I didn’t mention them above, but probably should have for more context).

]]> By: thelarmis http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268840 thelarmis Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:32:25 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268840 jorgie's a hall of famer in my heart. thanks for everything!!! jorgie’s a hall of famer in my heart. thanks for everything!!!

]]> By: Jon DeRosa http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2011/11/10/color-by-numbers-hip-hip-jorge/#comment-268838 Jon DeRosa Fri, 11 Nov 2011 04:08:17 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=75201#comment-268838 It will be a great test to see what happens to Posada when it comes to the HOF. His two best arguments for entry, excellent rate stats as a hitter and a key figure of one of the greatest teams of all time, are undercut somewhat by the fact that he played in an extreme hitters' era and that he was terrible in the postseason most of the time. His WAR totals, because of his very late start, leave him right below a bunch of people who are in (cochrane, hartnett) and right above a bunch who are out (porter, Munson). How will voters treat a short career that was often good but never brilliant? Campanella had his career cut short by a tragic accident, but with 3 MVP awards under his belt he was in. Same for Munson, but he didn't reach te levels of campy, and he is out. Posada has short career because the yanks didn't think he was good enough to play full time. I bet the voters don't give him a lot of sympathy for that. All this, a poor defensive rep and my cynical feeling that voters are gleefully going to limit the latest Yankee dynasty to two and only two HOFers so that it can forever be used against them in GOAT arguments (ok that might be paranoid), and I think posada struggles to get in. I'd vote for him. It will be a great test to see what happens to Posada when it comes to the HOF. His two best arguments for entry, excellent rate stats as a hitter and a key figure of one of the greatest teams of all time, are undercut somewhat by the fact that he played in an extreme hitters’ era and that he was terrible in the postseason most of the time. His WAR totals, because of his very late start, leave him right below a bunch of people who are in (cochrane, hartnett) and right above a bunch who are out (porter, Munson).

How will voters treat a short career that was often good but never brilliant? Campanella had his career cut short by a tragic accident, but with 3 MVP awards under his belt he was in. Same for Munson, but he didn’t reach te levels of campy, and he is out. Posada has short career because the yanks didn’t think he was good enough to play full time. I bet the voters don’t give him a lot of sympathy for that.

All this, a poor defensive rep and my cynical feeling that voters are gleefully going to limit the latest Yankee dynasty to two and only two HOFers so that it can forever be used against them in GOAT arguments (ok that might be paranoid), and I think posada struggles to get in.

I’d vote for him.

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