Comments on: Hughes Expectations http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/ Development site for Bronx Banter Blog's upcoming look and feel Wed, 22 May 2013 02:03:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.4.2 By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288465 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 03:01:10 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288465 [177] They have longer deadlines, at least for papers. On the other hand, I never hassle students for misspellings on timed tests. [177] They have longer deadlines, at least for papers. On the other hand, I never hassle students for misspellings on timed tests.

]]> By: Mr OK Jazz Tokyo http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288464 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:22:38 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288464 [175] I'm sensing you are not very tolerant of spelling errors by your students? :) [175] I’m sensing you are not very tolerant of spelling errors by your students? :)

]]> By: Mr OK Jazz Tokyo http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288463 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:22:03 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288463 [173] Safeco! Also, again, comparing Ichiro to some pretty top-tier hitters. He's NOT better than Gwynn or MannyBManny. But I still think if you look at thw whole package, he gets in. [175] Incredible year from Carew. Worthy MVP [173] Safeco! Also, again, comparing Ichiro to some pretty top-tier hitters. He’s NOT better than Gwynn or MannyBManny. But I still think if you look at thw whole package, he gets in.

[175] Incredible year from Carew. Worthy MVP

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288462 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:18:41 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288462 [172] An awesome season. Note the .570 SLG. [173] Meanwhile, Tony Gwynn became Tony Gwinn. Grrrr. [172] An awesome season. Note the .570 SLG.

[173] Meanwhile, Tony Gwynn became Tony Gwinn. Grrrr.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288461 RIYank Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:17:36 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288461 [169] Yes, it is park-adjusted but not position-adjusted. Ichiro did pick up huge piles of runs saved, by UZR, so that's where a lot of the WAR comes from. [169] Yes, it is park-adjusted but not position-adjusted.
Ichiro did pick up huge piles of runs saved, by UZR, so that’s where a lot of the WAR comes from.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288460 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:17:04 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288460 [170] So Tony Gwinn was a comparalel singles hitter? How about: .338/.388/.459/.847/132 v. .322/.365/.418/.783/113 So, Gwinn hit for a considerably higher BA, got on base much more, hit with far greater power, and had a significantly higher OPS+ (adjusted for context). So why is Gwinn in my HoF and Ichiro not? Because Gwinn was a whole lot better! [170] So Tony Gwinn was a comparalel singles hitter? How about:

.338/.388/.459/.847/132

v.

.322/.365/.418/.783/113

So, Gwinn hit for a considerably higher BA, got on base much more, hit with far greater power, and had a significantly higher OPS+ (adjusted for context). So why is Gwinn in my HoF and Ichiro not? Because Gwinn was a whole lot better!

]]> By: Mr OK Jazz Tokyo http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288459 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:16:38 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288459 Rod Carew 1977: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/carewro01.shtml THAT's what I'm talking about! :) Rod Carew 1977: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/carewro01.shtml

THAT’s what I’m talking about! :)

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288458 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:13:29 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288458 [168] OK, that's a fair argument. Maybe I'll have to look more closely at comparable WAR. [168] OK, that’s a fair argument. Maybe I’ll have to look more closely at comparable WAR.

]]> By: Mr OK Jazz Tokyo http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288457 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:13:19 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288457 [165][166][167] I think you guys are exhibiting some slight bias' against "singles hitters". IF Tony Gwynn is in the Hall (as he should be), why not Ichiro? Abreu's career stats are great. Maybe I am swayed by watchign him play "D" while with the Yankees. Adam Dunn..i really can't stand watching three-true-outcomes guys. Frankly, I don't think that indicated a lot of baseball "skill". Just brute strength and a good eye. No running, no throwing, no slap-hitting.. I think it's an aesthetics thing with me. I love watching 5-tool guys and thus, possibly/probbaly overrate them. Guys that walk a lot...yawn... [165][166][167] I think you guys are exhibiting some slight bias’ against “singles hitters”. IF Tony Gwynn is in the Hall (as he should be), why not Ichiro?

Abreu’s career stats are great. Maybe I am swayed by watchign him play “D” while with the Yankees.

Adam Dunn..i really can’t stand watching three-true-outcomes guys. Frankly, I don’t think that indicated a lot of baseball “skill”. Just brute strength and a good eye. No running, no throwing, no slap-hitting..

I think it’s an aesthetics thing with me. I love watching 5-tool guys and thus, possibly/probbaly overrate them. Guys that walk a lot…yawn…

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288456 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:12:22 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288456 [165] OPS+ is adjusted for context, including park effects, no? 113 OPS+ is just not that impressive for a corner OF. [165] OPS+ is adjusted for context, including park effects, no? 113 OPS+ is just not that impressive for a corner OF.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288455 RIYank Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:11:38 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288455 Let's see, Ichiro accumulated about 54 WAR in the 10 years. That really is very impressive. More than Abreu, more than Torii, more than Mags. So now I'm thinking his defense plus the Safeco factor might add up to more than I was giving Ichiro credit for. Let’s see, Ichiro accumulated about 54 WAR in the 10 years. That really is very impressive. More than Abreu, more than Torii, more than Mags.

So now I’m thinking his defense plus the Safeco factor might add up to more than I was giving Ichiro credit for.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288454 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:08:37 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288454 [163] I'm not saying guys with power are necessarily better. What I am saying is that power is important to a corner OF. At the very least, power is also part of the overall ability of a player. Your special pleading to ask me to consider Ichiro's master glovework or the uniqueness of his ability to hit singles, but not allow me to invoke power as part of the overall package. Regarding Dunn: I agree, I hate watching him play. But I bet I win a lot more games with Dunn in RF than Ichiro. Regarding Abreu: what is your knock on him? His poor defense, when he played for the YAnkees? Otherwise, he had speed (398 career steals), a great eye (= better table-setter than Ichiro), much more power. Overall he was, I think, clearly a better player than Ichiro. [163] I’m not saying guys with power are necessarily better. What I am saying is that power is important to a corner OF. At the very least, power is also part of the overall ability of a player. Your special pleading to ask me to consider Ichiro’s master glovework or the uniqueness of his ability to hit singles, but not allow me to invoke power as part of the overall package.

Regarding Dunn: I agree, I hate watching him play. But I bet I win a lot more games with Dunn in RF than Ichiro.

Regarding Abreu: what is your knock on him? His poor defense, when he played for the YAnkees? Otherwise, he had speed (398 career steals), a great eye (= better table-setter than Ichiro), much more power. Overall he was, I think, clearly a better player than Ichiro.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288453 RIYank Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:07:37 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288453 Also, Bobby Abreu's lifetime OBP: .396. Holy shit. Lifetime! I'm impressed when someone does that for a year. Now <i>that's</i> a table-setter. Also, Bobby Abreu’s lifetime OBP: .396. Holy shit. Lifetime! I’m impressed when someone does that for a year.

Now that’s a table-setter.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288452 RIYank Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:05:20 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288452 [161] I dunno, Torii didn't get as many hits, but he had more power, and he was a CF, and he was <i>the</i> best OF in baseball. Abreu was a much, <i>much</i> better hitter, esp. if I can add 1998 and 1999 (he was hugely underrated), although he wasn't much of a fielder. I'd forgotten about Shef -- I think of him as somewhat earlier, but he was good late too. And he had some really incredible, 1.000 OPS years, too. I will give Ichiro some extra credit for playing in Safeco. That's an OPS-stealing stadium. [161] I dunno, Torii didn’t get as many hits, but he had more power, and he was a CF, and he was the best OF in baseball. Abreu was a much, much better hitter, esp. if I can add 1998 and 1999 (he was hugely underrated), although he wasn’t much of a fielder.

I’d forgotten about Shef — I think of him as somewhat earlier, but he was good late too. And he had some really incredible, 1.000 OPS years, too.

I will give Ichiro some extra credit for playing in Safeco. That’s an OPS-stealing stadium.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288451 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:03:19 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288451 [156] How do the stats miss all of that. for example "superb table-setter" shows up clearly in OBP. But Ichiro's career OBP (.365) is really not *that* impressive. It's good, but not overwhelming. Heck, O'Neil's career OBP was .363. Yes, Ichiro plays great defense and can steal bases. But again, those things can be measured, more or less. How much value does Ichiro's glove and speed actually add? How many more wins did he produce? I guess we could look at WAR, if I had the time to compile a list of corner OFs' career WAR to see where Ichiro ends up. What it seems to me you are really trying to argue is that Ichiro possesses intangible and/or aesthetic qualities that cannot be statistically verified, and these contradict any argument that he is overrated. Well, I simply can't argue with that. In fact, the argument (and methodology) is irrefutable. [156] How do the stats miss all of that. for example “superb table-setter” shows up clearly in OBP. But Ichiro’s career OBP (.365) is really not *that* impressive. It’s good, but not overwhelming. Heck, O’Neil’s career OBP was .363.

Yes, Ichiro plays great defense and can steal bases. But again, those things can be measured, more or less. How much value does Ichiro’s glove and speed actually add? How many more wins did he produce?

I guess we could look at WAR, if I had the time to compile a list of corner OFs’ career WAR to see where Ichiro ends up.

What it seems to me you are really trying to argue is that Ichiro possesses intangible and/or aesthetic qualities that cannot be statistically verified, and these contradict any argument that he is overrated. Well, I simply can’t argue with that. In fact, the argument (and methodology) is irrefutable.

]]> By: Mr OK Jazz Tokyo http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288450 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo Wed, 29 Aug 2012 02:00:11 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288450 [162] Interesting list. Though Larry Walker was often injrued and had the Coors effect. And Adam Dunn! Blechh...really don't like watching players like him and Jason Giambi. I remember watching Giambino trying to throw to 2B..painful. I see you guys points but your list is basically saying, "the guys with power are better players". As an overall player, Ichiro was amazing and MUCH more qualified for the HOF than Dunn, Abreu, Walker of Magglio. Obviously, he's behind Bonds, Manny, Vlad and maybe Sheff. [162] Interesting list. Though Larry Walker was often injrued and had the Coors effect. And Adam Dunn! Blechh…really don’t like watching players like him and Jason Giambi. I remember watching Giambino trying to throw to 2B..painful.

I see you guys points but your list is basically saying, “the guys with power are better players”. As an overall player, Ichiro was amazing and MUCH more qualified for the HOF than Dunn, Abreu, Walker of Magglio. Obviously, he’s behind Bonds, Manny, Vlad and maybe Sheff.

]]> By: monkeypants http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288449 monkeypants Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:56:45 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288449 {161] The list that I came up with of OFs I'd take over Ichiro (and this includes only corner OFs whose careers roughly overlapped with Ichiro's): Vlad Guererro Manny Ramirez Magglio Ordonez Garry Sheffield Bobby Abreu Larry Walker Adam Dunn Barry Bonds {161] The list that I came up with of OFs I’d take over Ichiro (and this includes only corner OFs whose careers roughly overlapped with Ichiro’s):

Vlad Guererro
Manny Ramirez
Magglio Ordonez
Garry Sheffield
Bobby Abreu
Larry Walker
Adam Dunn
Barry Bonds

]]> By: Mr OK Jazz Tokyo http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288448 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:53:06 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288448 [159] Hmm..Bonds, Beltran, Jones and Vlad, yes. Ichiro before Hunter, Abreu, Damon or Lee. Those first four all HOF worthy, methinks! [159] Hmm..Bonds, Beltran, Jones and Vlad, yes. Ichiro before Hunter, Abreu, Damon or Lee. Those first four all HOF worthy, methinks!

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288447 RIYank Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:50:56 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288447 I'm not really offering an opinion about Hall of Fame status by the way; just responding to the "which outfielders would you rather have over that decade?" question. I’m not really offering an opinion about Hall of Fame status by the way; just responding to the “which outfielders would you rather have over that decade?” question.

]]> By: RIYank http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/2012/08/28/hughes-expectations/#comment-288446 RIYank Wed, 29 Aug 2012 01:49:17 +0000 http://www.bronxbanterblog.com/?p=90807#comment-288446 Torii Hunter, Vlad, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, Carlos Beltran, and (sorry) Barry Bonds. Andruw Jones, Carlos Lee. That's all I can think of. Torii Hunter, Vlad, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, Carlos Beltran, and (sorry) Barry Bonds. Andruw Jones, Carlos Lee.

That’s all I can think of.

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