"A New York Treasure" --Village Voice

Atlanta Braves

Atlanta Braves

2009 Record: 33-36 (.478)
2009 Pythagorean Record: 33-36 (.478)

2008 Record: 72-90 (.444)
2008 Pythagorean Record: 79-83 (.488)

Manager: Bobby Cox
General Manager: Frank Wren

Home Ballpark (Park Factors): Turner Field (99/99)

Who’s Replacing Whom:

  • Casey Kotchman replaces Mark Teixeira
  • Nate McLouth replaces Mark Kotsay
  • Garret Anderson replaces most of Gregor Blanco (bench)
  • Matt Diaz reclaims playing time from Josh Anderson
  • Diory Hernandez is filling in for Omar Infante (DL)
  • David Ross replaces Corky Miller, Clint Sammons (minors), and Brayan Peña
  • Derek Lowe replaces Tom Glavine and Mike Hampton
  • Javier Vazquez replaces Tim Hudson (DL) and Chuck James
  • Kenshin Kawakami replaces Jorge Campillo (DL) and James Parr (minors)
  • Tommy Hanson replaces Jo-Jo Reyes (DL) and John Smoltz
  • Eric O’Flaherty replaces Will Ohman
  • Mike Gonzalez reclaims his innings from Vladimir Nuñez
  • Rafael Soriano reclaims his innings from Julian Tavarez and Jorge Julio
  • Peter Moylan reclaims his innings from Blaine Boyer
  • Kris Medlen is filling in for Buddy Carlyle (DL)

25-man Roster:

1B – Casey Kotchman (L)
2B – Kelly Johnson (L)
SS – Yunel Escobar (R)
3B – Chipper Jones (S)
C – Brian McCann (L)
RF – Jeff Francoeur (R)
CF – Nate McLouth (L)
LF – Garret Anderson (L)


R – Matt Diaz (LF)
R – Martin Prado (UT)
L – Gregor Blanco (CF)
R -Diory Hernandez (IF)
R – David Ross (C)


R – Derek Lowe
R – Jair Jurrjens
R – Javier Vazquez
R – Tommy Hanson
R – Kenshin Kawakami


L – Mike Gonzalez
R – Rafael Soriano
R – Jeff Bennett
L – Eric O’Flaherty
R – Peter Moylan
R – Manny Acosta
R – Kris Medlen

15-day DL: PH – Greg Norton (hamstring), UT – Omar Infante (broken hand), LHP – Jo-Jo Reyes (hamstring), RHP – Buddy Carlyle (upper back strain/Type-1 diabetes)

60-day DL: RHP – Tim Hudson (TJ), RHP – Jorge Campillo (shoulder tendonitis)

Typical Lineup:

L – Nate McLouth (CF)
R – Yunel Escobar (SS)
S – Chipper Jones (3B)
L – Brian McCann (C)
L – Garret Anderson (LF)
L – Casey Kotchman (1B)
R – Jeff Francoeur (RF)
L – Kelly Johnson (2B)

I won’t lie to you guys. Fatherhood combined with an attempt to return to work (at the day-job, that is) is kicking my behind this week. Fortunately, I’ve already written several pieces on the Braves elsewhere that can help stand in for a more detailed series preview here.

First stop, the Braves chapter of Baseball Prospectus 2009. The key idea in the essay is that the Braves had (and largely still have) the prospects in place both in the minors and with young players such as 25-year-old Brian McCann and 23-year-old Jair Jurrjens in the majors to build a perennial contender for the coming decade, but they seemed a bit too concerned about taking advantage of their weak division in 2009 with a likely-unsuccessful playoff run. That was written just after they flipped one of their top trading chips, slugging soon-to-be-former backstop Tyler Flowers, for 32-year-old Javy Vazquez, but before they signed 36-year-old Derek Lowe and 34-year-old Japanese import Kenshin Kawakami.

When they signed Lowe and Kawakami, I wrote a piece for SI.com evaluating the Braves’ chances now that it was clear they were indeed going for broke with the team they had rather than going for the gold with the one they could build. My conclusion at that point:

If Kotchman can bounce back to his 2007 form after a season interrupted by a trade and a family illness, center field prospect Jordan Schafer can progress quickly at Triple-A and join Hanson in the majors by midseason and/or Jeff Francoeur (.239 BA, 11 HRs) can fix whatever ailed him last year (that last being the least likely), then there’s no reason that the Braves can’t thrust themselves into the wild-card picture. An actual playoff berth still seems like a long shot, though.

The returns on those “ifs” thus far: Kotchman is hitting .264/.324/.376 and lost some time to the DL, Schafer broke camp as the team’s center fielder and then played himself back to the minors, and Francoeur has actually been worse this year (.249/.284/.340) than he was in his disastrous 2008 campaign, something I didn’t think was possible.

With Schafer having failed his initial trial in center, the Braves went out and dealt their next most marketable (and expendable) trade chip, center field prospect Gorkys Hernandez, in a deal that netted them Pirates center fielder Nate McLouth. I analyzed that deal and its impact on the Braves still foundering playoff hopes in another piece at SI.com.

My review there acknowledged the success the success the Braves had had with their rebuilt rotation:

The additions of Lowe, Vazquez, and Kawakami, along with holdover Jair Jurrjens, have turned the Braves rotation, which was 20th in ERA in 2008, into one of the best in the majors (the Braves starters’ 3.93 ERA ranks fifth in the majors this year).

But continued to doubt the offense and bet against the Braves making the postseason:

McLouth is merely a competitive advantage given the defense-first position he plays, not a game-changing force. McCann, 80 percent of Chipper Jones, a few solid soldiers (with McLouth now among their ranks) and two black holes [Francoeur and the left-field platoon of Garret Anderson and Matt Diaz] does not add up to a division-winning offense, which is why I have to continue to pick against the Braves in the NL East.

Indeed, since acquiring McLouth, the Braves have gone 7-10, dropping below .500 and slipping into fourth-place in the division (thanks in part to the Marlins’  series win over the Yankees this past weekend).

Tommy Hanson, who starts against Chien-Ming Wang tonight, is a reminder of what the Braves are risking with their win-now approach. The big Oklahman righty is the top pitching prospect in the Braves organization and a potential number-two starter, if not more. In 11 Triple-A starts before his promotion, his first work at the level, he had a 1.50 ERA and 5.29 K/BB ratio. He’s made three major league starts thus far, and each was better than the last, with him shutting out the Reds over six innings on three hits (but four walks) in his last turn.

Finally, the Braves middle infielders are both hurting, shortstop Yunel Escobar with a hip problem and second-baseman Kelly Johnson with leg cramps. If neither can go tonight or in this series, it’s a split decision. Johnson isn’t hitting and backup Martin Prado, who filled in at first base when Kotchman was on the DL, is, but Escobar is both solid and one of the Braves’ few right-handed bats, while slick-fielding rookie Diory Hernandez has an OPS+ of -16. Fortunately for the Yankees, it seems more likely that Johnson will play than Escobar, and Prado can’t play shortstop.

As for the Yankees, Johnny Damon sits again due to pain in his calf, so we get Sunday’s lineup again for the first eight spots. I’m sure Wang in the ninth spot has strict instructions to do nothing but take pitches and bunt without running to first. Damon, Escobar, and Johnson are all listed as day-to-day.

Categories:  Cliff Corcoran  Game Thread  Series Preview

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Show/Hide Comments 1-100
1 Bama Yankee   ~  Jun 23, 2009 6:15 pm

This series is for braggin' rights for guys like me, Jeb and thelarmis who live down here in Braves country... We can only get by on those two Serious titles for so long. Anything less than two out of three is unacceptable. Lets go Yankees!!!

2 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 6:49 pm

[1] With all due respect to your Braves fan friends, yes, you can get by on those two WS titles for quite a while longer!

3 Cliff Corcoran   ~  Jun 23, 2009 6:56 pm

It's three in a row against the Braves dating back to 1958, FWIW.

And the Yankees winning streak of eight-straight World Series games against the Braves is still active as well. That's the thing. Save for Smoltz's performance in Game 5 of 1996, the Braves didn't even show up after the Leyritz homer. The Braves' dynasty was confined to the NL East thereafter.

4 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:02 pm

OK boys and girls--I have the MY9 feed tonight on Rogers, so I actually get to watch the game. It's line in the sand time. The worm turns. The momentum swings. Tide turns. Darkest before the storm. Remember the Alamo!

You get the picture.

5 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:10 pm

[4] Who had the sale on cliches?

6 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:12 pm

The last three games ever played at old Fulton County Stadium were Yankees World Series game wins... in case you're interested...

No wonder they built "The Ted!"

: )

7 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:12 pm

[5] I've been saving them up for a rainy day!

8 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:13 pm

Evening, Team.

So I turn on the television to see Derek ground out to...Chipper Jones??

I swear I had no idea he was still playing baseball. Or maybe I'm just shocked to see him still at 3B for Atlanta. It was like a little time warp.

9 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:13 pm

[6] The last play was a desperate lunge by a hobbled Paul O'Neill. Not a bad way to close out a stadium!

10 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:14 pm

that was a weird pitch

11 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:14 pm

You forgot "The Ebb and Flow," and I don't mean cousin Eb from Green Acres and Flow from Alice!

"Kiss my griyats!"

: )

12 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:15 pm

Man, Hanson straddles the whole rubber before his windup. Don't see much of that.

13 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:16 pm

[11] Flo*

14 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:17 pm

[8] My earliest memory of Chipper was in a Spring Training game during which he suffered an awful injury. The Yankee radio guys kept talking about how great a prospect he was and then all of a sudden he was out for the year.

15 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:18 pm

[8] Everytime I write him off, he puts up yet another monster season. And he has moved with more or less ease between 3B and LF as the team needed. Check out his stats:


Career 145 OPS+ ?!?

I argued the other day (and it was an unpopular stance, I know) that Ichiro is an overrated very good player. I would also argue that Chipper is quietly an underrated great player.

16 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:19 pm

Nice play! I never thought Robie had a chance, especially when he took the ball in his glove. Nice.

17 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:19 pm

Cano's good at the baseball.

18 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:19 pm

Wang looks right so far.

19 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:20 pm

[15] The two knocks on Chipper have been that he has become fragile in his later career and he never played a defensive position particularly well. All things considered, Chipper is definitely one of the better players of his era and a surefire first ballot HoF'er in my book.

20 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:20 pm

nice to see that 1st inning

21 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:21 pm

ZOMG @ six pitches, three ground outs!


22 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:21 pm

Hey, they're following the scouting report. : ) 1, 2, 3 groundballs.

23 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:21 pm

Damn, he really is good and what's more, the dude's even older than I am!

He's an old man, albeit still effective with the bat.

Nice job, Chien-Ming!

24 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:21 pm

[19] Yeah--if you look at his games played, he rarely puts together a full season. This is a very off-the-cuff comparison, but it would be interesting to compare him and Mantle (besides the obvious switchhitterness).

25 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:23 pm

Wow, he's really, really good, that Chipper. He hits for good power and doesn't strike out. And he has an outside chance at 3000 hits (he's at 23-something).

26 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:23 pm

[19] I saw him in Rochester when he was 19. I told my girlfriend (now wife) I heard he's supposed to be pretty good. : )

27 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:24 pm

[26] Was he a skinny little thing?

28 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:25 pm

I had a lot of Braves players play golf at a facility I helped start up called Bridge Mill Athletic Club northeast of Atlanta in Canton, GA. They all signed for anyone on my staff who asked, whenever they came to play...

: )

29 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:25 pm

wow ... braves announcers are something special ... 1 dude just attempted to state that arod's flyball would have been a homerun in NYS.

30 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:26 pm

[24] Mantle was a much better hitter and played a well regarded CF. Also, Mantle was done by age-36, not so much because he couldn't play anymore, but because it was too painful to do so. With everything that has been written about Mantle, I think it's pretty clear he could have been even better if he had been more healthy and especially if he had taken better care of himself. It's pretty amazing that a player with a lifetime OPS+ of 172 inspired so much talk about "what might have been".

In other words, Chipper Jones is great, but he is no Mickey Mantle.

31 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:27 pm

Cano was actually about to offer at that pitch...even though it hit him. Somewhere, somehow Cano's patient approach has vanished.

32 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:28 pm

[29] There is a "different reality" for some down there, Cult...

: )

33 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:28 pm

[31] i think he thought about it but would have held up more clearly had it not hit him

34 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:29 pm

[33] Probably, but it does illustrate why he offers at anything close. If he almost offers at balls about to hit him, how could he possible eyeball something just off the plate?

35 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:29 pm

[31] I know, I caught that too.

36 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:30 pm

thelarmis should be out in Centerfield wailin' on a drum ala that dude in Cleveland. : D

37 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:31 pm

[34] that's true, but in fairness i really don't think he's been swinging at too many balls that aren't even close to the strike zone (as he used to), but rather making early contact that usually results in an out

38 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:31 pm

Hanson looks excellent...kind of reminds me of Hughes.

39 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:32 pm

Hell, I'm just glad they haven't started that maddening "Oh, Oh Ohhh, Oh Oh Ohhh" tomahawk chop chant thingy already!

: )

40 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:32 pm

[37] I'd agree with that, although ironically, he might be better off missing pitches well out of the zone than making so much contact on close pitches.

41 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:33 pm

[30] Sure, sure...I meant more in terms of production at a more advanced age and persistent injury-shortened seasons. But bottom line, there is probably not much comparison.

42 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:33 pm

c'mon Gritner, make 'em pay.

43 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:34 pm

Swing for the fences, Gardy!

Chien-Ming: take.

44 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:34 pm

[40] right, but better just one than both

45 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:36 pm

With the exception of Gehrig, most Yankee greats retired off of some pretty good seasons. I hope the same is true of the Yankees' current crop of future Hall of Famers.

46 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:36 pm

well done, gritner, at least we'll clear the pitcher's spot.

47 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:36 pm

I will say that I have been generally very happy with Gardy. He has--so far--met the limited expectations. He continued to follow the pattern of taking two tries to "get" the next level, so last year looks like an adjustment season rather than his peak. His defense has been perhaps less than advertised (lots of speed, but weird routes to the ball). And goddam he's fast.

Uh-oh. What to do now? Do you allow Wang to rty to hit, or just end the inning now?

48 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

If he can't spot that curveball, Hanson is not long for this game.

49 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

I can't watch this!!!

50 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

LOL @ bases loaded for CMW with two outs...

That's why I hate the NL.

51 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

Scared of Gardner. For good reason, the way he's been hitting. ;-)

52 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

[49] For those not watching My 9, they had a replay of the Wang injury.

53 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:37 pm

oh god - i don't even want him to run to 1st

54 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm

[50] Funny, it's why I prefer the NL.

55 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm

Wow, that was dramatic!
Can't predict baseball.

56 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm

Why on Earth would Wang swing AND THEN run hard down the line? Is anyone minding the store?

57 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm

It's a damn you shame you have to feel apprehensive about a grown athlete running 90 feet. : /

58 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:38 pm

[53] Not without training wheels, Ms October...

: )

59 seamus   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:39 pm

did Wang at least hit it hard? I cringe even as I write that....

60 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:39 pm

[57] He's not an athlete...he's a pitcher!

61 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:40 pm

[54] Pitchers "batting" are unacceptable...

62 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:40 pm

[59] It was a slow topper.

63 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:40 pm

[59] Not exactly. He swung, chopped it, the ball must have traveled about thirty feet. Out 1-3.

64 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:41 pm

[61] And yet, excusable! Funny, isn't it?

65 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:41 pm

Honestly though...he hits Cano, goes 3-2 on Posada and walks Melky and Gardner. What about that pattern compels Wang to swing at the first pitch? I can understand why a manager would not want to give a real hitter the take sign, but shoudn't an AL pitcher be under such orders?

66 seamus   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm

[62][63] thanks. bummer.

67 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm

Did anyone else notice Wang pullup a bit going down the line? After having good sink and mid-90s on the fastball, he is all of sudden throwing low-90s and leaving the ball up. Maybe I am just paranoid?

68 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm

[65] yes

69 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:43 pm

[67] paranoid

70 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:44 pm

Hm, those aren't ground balls.

71 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:44 pm

i thought the mccann hit was a pretty good pitch. that was not.

72 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:45 pm

I'm more paranoid about the 2 line smash singles into Center.

73 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:45 pm

C'mon, Tiger. Get us a GIDP.

74 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:45 pm

this is getting way too Wangish

75 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:45 pm

He looks seriously worried.

76 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:45 pm

[67] Maybe I am just paranoid?

77 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:46 pm

Wow he's terrible from the stretch...

78 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:46 pm

Not a ground ball; however, not complaining.

79 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:46 pm

PitchFX seems to confirm the drop in velocity. He looks completely different in this inning. I don't know if he tweaked something, or it was just the exertion, but it really seems as if something isn't right this inning.

80 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:46 pm

Walking Jeff Francouer is not acceptable. Fortunately Wang managed to avoid that fate.

81 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:47 pm

[79] to be clear, i think you're paranoid in thinking he hurt himself. he clearly was better last inning.

82 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm

Wang has struggled form the stretch before.

Ugh. Fly balls off Wang are never a good sign.

83 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm

[79] Could the fact that he's pitching from the stretch [77] possibly explain anything?

84 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm

lucky. was cano's foot even on the bag?

85 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm

Wow, that was close!
Gardy should practice hitting the ball like that.

86 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm


87 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:48 pm

Now his velocity is better later in the inning...meanwhile, why are Wang and Tex fighting for that ball?

88 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:49 pm

when i squint ... THAT looks like a routine play in the box score ...

89 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:49 pm

[87] Language barrier?

90 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:49 pm

[84] It didn't look like it to me, but I'll take it.

[87] Because, my boy, those are bawl players.

91 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:50 pm

I am trying to completely ignore the Red Sox score because I can even imagine them losing a game to the Nats. Instead, I think the real team to watch is TB. I don't think the AL Central will produce a WC contender and have a feeling that the Rangers will fall by the wayside.

92 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:51 pm

[91] I tend not to scoreboard watch in June.

93 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:51 pm

Wang is a good fielder. Remember that game where he had 10 assists, or something ridiculous like that? I think it was one short of the record.

He's used to helping field all those grounders. And probably not used to getting much help from 1B.

94 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Hanson really looks like Hughes, but without the fluid mechanics.

95 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

[57] I know!

I really don't see how, because a man's a pitcher, he's therefore too fragile to run 90 feet.

I mean for Christ's sake, these people are, in fact, athletes before they are pitchers, are they not? They work out and train and whatnot.

And yet, they hurt themselves running. I don't get it.

Nice hit, Derek.

96 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Damn. Pulling for a triple. C'mon, Jete. : )

97 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

nice announcing by michael kay.
why was anderson so far in the corner?

98 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

jeter with a nice pull hit - oyf should be happy

99 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

Damn, that was the weirdest line single, no double, no triple in the gap, no double...

100 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:52 pm

nice of anderson to turn a double into a triple, nice of jetes to give it back.

Show/Hide Comments 101-200
101 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:53 pm

Talk about a sign that we are all getting old...when they both started out, that ball never gets by Andersen and Jeter is on 3B standing.

102 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:53 pm

Bizarre performance by Wang thus far. First inning is uber-Wang, second starts off looking like Wang at his worst until the third out which looked like uber-Wang again.

103 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:53 pm

[93] LOL @ "not used to getting much help from 1B"...

Too true...

104 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:54 pm

Hanson actually reminds me of Halladay...but only in the face

105 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:54 pm

[93] Yeah! I had forgotten, but now that you mention it, yes.

106 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:55 pm

[94] i don't really see the hughes comparison. aside from the obvious difference in delivery, hanson doesn't seem to have as good a curve, has a better slider, and doesn't throw a cutter. i'm not sure if those last 2 points make sense since hughs's "cutter" is really the only slider-type pitch he throws now.

107 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:55 pm

C'mon Tex!

108 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:56 pm

He's actually scared shitless of Teix. Amazing.

109 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:56 pm

He wanted no part of that AB...

110 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:57 pm

Hanson is supposed to be a superstud prospect, isn't he?

111 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:57 pm

[106] Both pitchers have a 92-93mph fastball that has good movement as well as a plus overhand curve (although Hanson's hasn't been good today). This start by Hanson reminds me of Hughes when he struggles.

112 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:57 pm

Okay, I think this is the first time that PJ said the same thing I did only more politiely

113 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:58 pm

Gas or his first good curveball?

114 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:58 pm

[110] Yes in deed. Remember, he is only 22. And so is Hughes for one more day.

115 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:59 pm

Oh, Alex, Alex, Alex.


116 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:59 pm

arod's timing is just very off

117 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:59 pm

[113] The first two pitches were fastballs -- is that what you meant?

118 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:59 pm

It really is amazing how this team only wins when Arod is going well. You'd think the lineup depth would make up for his struggles.

119 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 7:59 pm


120 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

Lest we forget - A Rod signed through 2017.

121 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

[117] Unfortunately, I was wondering what was going to get Alex. Oy.

122 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

[118] maybe he shouldn't be hitting cleanup when he can't hit

123 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

All right, now anyone (mp?) who says that "protection" is just a lot of hocus-pocus needs only look at this inning and then tell me there's no such thing as "protection."

124 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:00 pm

And there goes Cano hacking away again. Why, oh why does Girardi continue to bat him 5th?

125 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:01 pm

[121] Pessimistic. Albeit realistic.

126 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:01 pm

[123] Does anyone actually say that??

127 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:01 pm

[123] The of anecdote is not data. Just look at the evidence overall.

128 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:02 pm

[126] Yes, I do, and a bunch of articles on baseball prospectus and the like.

129 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:02 pm

I guess Braves fans aren't enamored of their RFer. They made this shirt.

130 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:03 pm

[127] plural


131 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:03 pm

The rest of MLB is really lucky that Cano insists on swinging at bad pitches.

132 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:03 pm

[128] Etc.
It's not exactly hocus pocus. It's just that the effect is extremely small.

133 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:04 pm

[127] Actually, in this instance, the anecdote is more powerful than data. I think it's pretty obvious that Teixeira didn't get the chance to swing because Arod is struggling so much.

134 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:04 pm

mclouth looks like a dick

135 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:05 pm

meanwhile, good Doodles is back this inning

136 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:06 pm

[133] I agree, it's pretty hard to argue with that particular case!
It's just that the overall effect is very small over the course of a season.

137 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:06 pm

[128] I get that there are studies demonstrating it's a chimera, and maybe in the aggregate it is, but what did we all just see with our eyes? We saw Teix not get anything to hit because the pitcher had zero fear of going after his "protection."

Had Alex been hitting, Teix more likely would have gotten something to hit.

I mean, can we agree that we just saw one guy being pitched around because his successor was deemed the easier out?

138 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:06 pm

[132] over the course of a season yes. any given inning or game as william [133] pointed out, it might matter

139 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:07 pm

[133] Also. Teixeira's walk in that AB contributes positive value to his data. One could argue that Tex' OPS of 1.000 is evidence of Arod's struggles not making a difference. By looking at the anecdote, however, we can see that Tex was walked on purpose so Hanson could attack the struggling Arod.

140 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:08 pm

Kind of surprised A Rod missed that.

141 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:08 pm

jesus jorgie what was the point?

142 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:08 pm

Ohhhhh. That was not a good throw.

143 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:08 pm

the hell was that....

144 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:09 pm

Uhhh, Posada?

145 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:09 pm

Just a stupid decision by Posada....once again, that has become a hallmark of this team.

146 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:09 pm

Gawd-awful throw by Posada.

147 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:09 pm

That was a joke.

148 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:10 pm

here's another anecdote

149 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:10 pm

[140] Arod has clearly taken a step back. When you consider that he was actually performing up to his old standards for a stretch, you really have to wonder if the overuse has stunted his recovery. If so, then that is a transgression that should seal Girardi's fate.

150 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:11 pm

That hit kind of feels like ballgame.

151 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:11 pm

Settle down now, C-M...

152 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:11 pm

Just get out of the inning with one run scored.

153 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:11 pm

mccann is good. that was a good pitch.

154 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:11 pm

[132] Right.

[137] Perhaps. We have no way of running a double blind test. Maybe he was "scared" of Teix, or maybe he lost his arm slot. But let's assume teh former. Maybe if A-Rod is slugging Teix would have gotten more to hit. Or maybe the pitcher would still feel more comfortable facing A-Rod because there is something in the scouting report that he prefers. Maybe he really didn't want to pitch to teh switch hitter. Maybe he subscribed to the silly notion that you as a rule pitch around a slugger with first base open, because he might chase or you might "set up the double play."

In any case, this entire discussion is based on the operating assumption that his walk of Teix was the product of fear. I tend not to get into the psychological stuff, because it's hard for me to determine fear from here on the couch.

Uh-oh bad Wang returning.

155 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:11 pm

[135] blergh, spoke too soon.

wang doesn't seem to have the same stuff from the stretch ...

156 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm


157 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm

[150] Let's see if Wang stops it here.

158 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm

[150] i think you spelled "season" wrong

159 OldYanksFan   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm

I wonder... if we did NOT... HAVE TO WIN NOW....
would ARod have had the 'full surgery' and be ready for next year?

160 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:12 pm

[149] You do have a tendency to push supposition into reality.

161 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:13 pm

the way this offense is performing it does seem like that's the ballgame. man, when they get into this kind of hitting slumps, the whole team looks desperate.


162 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:13 pm

for fuck's sake

163 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:13 pm

Damn, he's getting hit hard now.

164 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:13 pm

Man, what is it with Wang anyway?

165 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:13 pm

Oh, man. Dammit.

166 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:13 pm

jesus christ this came tumbling down quickly

167 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:14 pm


168 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:14 pm

[138] I was trying to say something a propos this apparent conundrum but the computer wouldn't let me. I'll try again now:

Heads. Heads. Heads. Heads. Heads. Heads. Heads. Heads. Heads.

(Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead, on the fact that it's always 50-50 so why should we be surprised when it's heads twenty times in a row?)

169 OldYanksFan   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:14 pm

This team can't win without ARod... or rather Win 50% of the time.

170 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:14 pm

official: game over

171 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:15 pm

[168] Nice allusion, but.... huh?

172 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:15 pm

[164] I blame the coaching staff. Clearly he should have been coached not to run t first base when he was batting. This entire organization is asleep at the wheel. It's unacceptable.

173 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm


OK, I'm done with that.

Let's go boys!!

174 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm

[160] Not sure where I pushed anything into reality, but we have a case of a player who was clearly extended well beyond what the best experts recommended and a corresponding drop in production. I can understand not wanting to draw any conclusion from cold hard data, but in this case, I think it is pretty obvious that Arod has worn down a bit.

175 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm

Come on it's just three runs. Wang could give up no more and pitch through the sixth for all we know. The thing that bugged me about that was that it was with two outs. But anyway - it's on the offense to do something.

176 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm

[170] Nah, we're winning this one. Never fear.

177 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:16 pm

in this inning wang didn't look like he wanted any part of chipper jones. yet brian mccann was up next. i think it's a difficult thing to start saying definitively why a pitcher walks someone or throws a certain pitch.

178 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:17 pm

All with 2 outs. F##%!

179 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:17 pm

[172] If the coaching staff started their best pitchers, the point (and your post) would be moot.

180 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:17 pm

alright team - need to take advantage of the base runners as a result of hanson's wildness

181 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:17 pm

[177] Good point.

182 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:18 pm

You guys watching the Nats and Sox??

183 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:19 pm

[179] Even their best pitchers get touched up every now and then. It's not like that inning was some kind of unique display.

184 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:19 pm

[182] some of us don't check scores in june, others don't believe the sox can ever lose

185 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:19 pm

In case not: single, walk, walk, WP, walk. One out for the Nats.

186 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:19 pm

[184] Now I'm ashamed.

187 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:19 pm

Must score Melky.

188 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:19 pm

These are the longest doubles-but-not-triples I have ever seen.

189 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:20 pm

Melky ! You could tell he was like, "I walked last AB, I'm ****in' swinging this time"

190 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:20 pm

If Arod fields that ball, Wang is out of the inning without having to face Jones and McCann. Wang did give up two hard hits, but it doesn't help when your defense constantly gives up extra outs.

191 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:20 pm

[171] Heh heh. It's how my brain works. The fact that there could be "protection" in any given case but not "protection" as such, over the season or whatever, struck me as similar to the coin thing.

The odds are always 50-50 of getting heads, even if you've gotten heads the last two hundred times consecutively. Each toss is just 50-50 so there's never any cause to scratch your head if you get heads two hundred times in a row because it's really not as astronomically unlikely as it would seem because it's always just one in two of coming up heads and that's not so unlikely.

I don't know, that's what this reminds me of: I think it's something about how intuition and logic can clash and logic isn't infallible.

192 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:21 pm

[176] This is the trend the last few games: they threaten the first innings, they can't capitalize, then they get scored on and get into a 3 or 4 inning stretch in which they can't hit a lick, then they try to come back in the 8th or 9th and then its too late.

I hate this movie.

193 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:21 pm

oh good - someone else makes errors

194 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:21 pm

Ugh. They dropped the ball right on Melky's face.

195 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:21 pm

My goodness, more stupid baserunning by the Yankees.

196 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:21 pm

What a break!!!

That was like a play in little league!

Bad baseball all around.

197 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:22 pm

melky, you're a fucking idiot sometimes.

198 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:22 pm

Atlanta doesn't have good defense.

199 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:22 pm

[183] That true, but the purpose of my post was to merely demonstrate the absurdity of another post. As such, this team is not well run, and nothing anyone says to obfuscate that fact can change that reality.

200 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:22 pm

A bunt, but no squeeze? Are you serious?

Show/Hide Comments 201-300
201 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:22 pm

Someone needs to take this team to baserunning camp.

202 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:23 pm

wang has been far more of a "hitter" than i impagined he would be

203 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:23 pm

[191] I get it.
But seriously, the effect in the long run is very small as I said.

204 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:23 pm

If y'all don't check the scores on a daily basis or nightlty basis, does that mean that the only baseball game result you know about is the Yankees?

205 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:23 pm

[197] You can cross Melky out and fill in the blank. It's really a team problem that seems never to be addressed.

206 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:23 pm

[200] Tha's what I'm saying!

207 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:24 pm

Melky is a bonehead, as Chad Jennings put it. Last year, when they sent him down and told him to work on his baserunning, he made three stupid baserunning errors in three games.

That shoulda been a hit for Gardner.

208 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:25 pm

[206] Would it have taken much imagination to try a safety squeeze? Or, have Gardner steal 2B and see if Wang can hit a flyball.

209 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:26 pm

boy that was almost a foot inside calm down

210 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:27 pm

Late to check in, is CMW awful again? How many times can they keep putting him out there??? Sigh..

211 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:27 pm

let's go swishy - need some runs

212 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:27 pm

Here we go.
Watch Swish get ahead in the count and rattle this boy.

213 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:27 pm

Dear Big hit,
It's been awhile.
Your Friend,

214 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:27 pm

[203] I'll buy that it's small, whatever small means. I just don't like it when I'm discouraged from believing my own lying eyes. But then, I know, the stick *looks* bent in the water and yet is as straight as it was outside the water, so there you go. Chalk it all up to an evil genius hell-bent on deceiving my senses at every turn.

215 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:27 pm

oh damnit

216 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

The anti-clutch.

217 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

Or not.

218 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

Nice inning, Yankees.


219 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

[210] Wanger is not awful. He's been a little inconsistent, but not awful.

220 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

Incredible....this guy can throw strikes, but that doesn't stop the Yankees from hacking. This team continues to make the same mistakes and continues to lose as a result.

221 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

i know some people will be annoyed that he swung at that first pitch but i think it makes sense, just extraordinarily frustrating that it ends so quickly that way

222 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:28 pm

Dear Jf.
Go eff yourself.
Big Hit.

ps. ugh.

223 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:29 pm

[174] I was just commending your clever rhetorical tendency of using conditional clauses and the like to make unsupported points stronger. It usually goes like this:

A-Rod is really slumping (statement of fact). It's all the more striking when you think of how well he was doing before (fact, with some subjective judgment). It makes you wonder if the slump hasn't been caused by massive overuse (hmmm...speculation, charged with evocative language, no real evidence presented). If that's the case (ahh..very clever, distance yourself from the implicit conclusion that you just presented without firm evidence), then Girardi's fate should be sealed (extreme conclusion to conditional, which i really what you wanted to say to begin with ["They should fire Girardi"], but masked in a series of hypothetical statement. In effect, you have just said that Girardi caused A_rod's slump and should be fired, without ever making a positive statement. Brilliant.).

Another version was citing Pete Abe's argument about the possible overuse of Sabathia, but citing in a way that presented the argument as fact or conclusion. Then, when challenged, you can retreat by saying that you never argued for the point, that was only Pete Abe's argument.

It's really very good oratory. Have you read much Cicero?

224 OldYanksFan   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:30 pm

8 LOB in 4 innings...

225 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:31 pm

[214] There's more than one kind of illusion. There are cognitive illusions, too. For instance: some kinds of events are very salient to us (e.g., a pitcher walking Teixeira when A-Rod is slumping). We tend to remember those. We tend not to remember more mundane events.

Keep that in mind, because it's quite common for the kinds of events that confirm our traditional wisdom to be much more salient...

226 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:31 pm

The Yanks look bad at the plate again but Kay overstates it by saying how many men they've left on base. Three were with Wang at bat; can't really fault him not coming through.

227 dorian greybeard   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:31 pm

swisher is automatic out, no better than 4th outfielder

228 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:32 pm

[223] Do you honestly think that Girardi is doing a good job? Seriously?

229 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:32 pm

It's really hard to explain how you can have 2 doubles and 4 walks in four innings and ZERO runs.

defies logic.

I hate this movie

230 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:32 pm

[225] Indeed.

231 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:33 pm

[227] Then how did he get his OPS+ to 132 before this game?

232 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:33 pm

[219] Thanks..too down to go back and read all the game thread..Yanks could be 7 back by the ASG, and the Rays are charging..am really worried that they could miss the playoffs..unlike Williamnyy23 I put this on Cashman..the more I look back at his body of work, the less impressed I am..

233 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:33 pm


good wang = from the stretch
bad wang = from the wind

c'mon 1-2-3 innings!

234 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:33 pm

[223] I don't think I need to make indirect references to build a case for firing Girardi. If I wanted to do that, it would be much more effective to itemize the many reasons that support such a conclusion.

We know for a fact that Arod has been overused and that Cashman has had to intervene on his behalf. If you don't think that's a red flag, then I don't know when you'd ever come to a conclusion.

Oratory or not, Girardi has severely mismanaged games and his roster and that has become increasingly apparent with each mounting loss.

235 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:35 pm

[231] You and your numbers! Numbers cannot hit in the clutch. Numbers are not clutch.
Numbers. Basement.

236 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:35 pm

[223] That is too detailed for me to respond to - plus it wasn't directed at me, but let me just say: I'm not convinced.

237 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:35 pm

[232] In almost every loss over the past 12 games you call into question a series of moves by Girardi that negatively impacted the game. Why do you hold that against Cashman? How much more talent does this team need?

238 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:35 pm

The Wang is making strides to the good side, methinks. The offense, however. WTF?

239 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:35 pm

nice inning wang

[233] certainly seems so. i wonder if he hasn't been throwing out of the stretch enough in side sessions?

240 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:36 pm

for those of us scoreboard watching, boston took care of business in the 4th. and took the lead in the 5th. they win games with penny on the mound...remember when the yanks were 2 game above them?

241 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:36 pm

[235] ha hah ah ah ah !

"Numbers cannot hit in the clutch!"

I like that. Very much.

And it's true, they can't.

242 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:37 pm

[237] not to excuse girardi, but if you show me 5 recent great teams, i'll show you 5 bad managers (or perhaps 2 if 4 of those teams are torre's yanks).

243 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:37 pm

[240] Tampa, Texas and the Angels are the only teams I'm watching. The Yankees are not going to catch Boston unless some real changes are made, IMHO.

244 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:38 pm

[240] Yes ... I believe that was before the Red Sox beat them for the 6th, 7th and 8th time in a row this season, and apparently also made off with the Yanks' collective manhood.

245 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:38 pm

[235] Heh. Your post reminds me of that old Disraeli line about there being lies, damn lies, and statistics.

246 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:39 pm

Man, Alex is way, way out of whack.

247 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:39 pm

[242] Why does every defense of Girardi revolve around the perception that most managers are incompetent? Even if that is the case, shouldn't the Yankees be exploiting this universal weakness by hiring someone who gives them a relative advantage?

248 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

[232] I've gone back and forth. Girardi, Cashman to Cashman, Girardi.

the bottom line is that this team, with this talent can go on winning runs like the one we saw mid-May. I can't tell what they are missing. My guess is that this team goes as far as a-rod can take them, and he's really slumping.

249 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

Nice hit, Alex.

250 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

Not even warning track power...

251 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

[237] But in most games that any given team wins you can call into question a move that the manager made that the team may have won in spite of (Torre had his fair share of these), it comes down to roster construction. This team is extremely talented, yes. But is also deeply deeply flawed in several areas, that doesn't have much to do with Girardi.

252 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

[247] perhaps you missed the first clause of my comment. my answer to your 2nd question is yes. but in the current baseball world, where only ex-players are considered as managers, it seems to me that managers don't often make much of a difference one way or another.

253 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:40 pm

Now that *might* have been a HR in teh new stadium.

254 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:41 pm

At least were just 4 innings away form putting the tying run on base. Hey, Robbie!

255 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:42 pm

[254] we're, not even. The Yanks.

256 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:43 pm

that looked way outside to me

257 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:43 pm

[237] Angel Berroa, Sidney Ponson and Brett Tomko are reasons enough to question Cashman..like you, I am not overly impressed with Girardi, but ultimately General Managers are MUCH more important to a team's success than field Managers..remember, Charlie Manuel just won a World Series...not exactly John McGraw, is he?

258 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:43 pm

Whether you liked the old George's methods or not, at least you knew where he stood. The most frustrating part of this organization is they now offer absolutely no insight into how they view the team. Heck, even if they come out and say Girardi is the manager all season, it would let everyone know what to expect. I keep holding out hope that a change will be made, but it feels like a futile wish.

259 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:44 pm

[253] at least it would have needed a video review

260 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:44 pm

[244] The Yankees haven't had "manhood" in years...

261 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:44 pm

Oh, Jorgie.

262 dorian greybeard   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:45 pm

[248] that winning streak in may was against all bottom-tier teams. yanks can't beat stronger, hungrier teams

263 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:46 pm

[251] I don't agree with that position. Girardi's moves are so dubious that I absolutely do not believe that every manager performs as badly in a close game. The Tomko incident yesterday is the best example of that. There is absolutely no defense for allowing your worst pitcher to throw a game like that away. I am not willing to chalk that up to roster construction because you can have a guy like Tomko on the team without allowing him to blow leads in the 5th inning.

264 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:47 pm

[257] No OK, he's more like Bob Lemon...

: )

265 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:47 pm

[262] So the wins against the Rangers, Blue Jays, and Rays were against bottom-tier teams but the losses were to the stronger and hungrier Nationals and Marlins?

266 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:47 pm

[252] I understand that you are coaching the argument in the context of the "current baseball world", but I am sick tired of that excuse. I want Hal to wake up and realize that his $200mn roster is being managed poorly.

267 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:47 pm

[262] Like the Nationals?

268 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:48 pm

I like how Rob comes up throwing on that play.

269 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:48 pm

[266] but still the question is with whom do you replace girardi?

270 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:48 pm

well, we'll see how the wind-vs-stretch theory plays out ...

271 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:49 pm

[265] The Rangers are not hungry. Nor the Jays.
Check out their Starvation Quotient if you don't believe me.

272 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:50 pm

[269] Replace Girardi with Tony Pena, for the rest of the season, anyway.

273 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:50 pm

[257] Ponson was on the team because of a significant number of injuries. Focusing on this season, do you really think Cashman has forced Tomko on Girardi? Honestly? What's more, it's not Cashman brining him into 3-1 leads. Instead of focusing on the bottom of the roster, Cashman has been responsible for all the free agents along with Swisher, Aceves and the recent crop of draft picks. If your manager is failing because of guys liek Berroa and Tomko, I think that says alot more about him than the GM.

274 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:50 pm

[264] Thanks, Meat.

BoSox liekly to sweep the Nats..watching Beckett the other day was terrifying..when he's on like that he isn'y going to lose..but have reached a zen-like calmness now in accepting that the BoSox are our daddies..I am no longer in pain..

275 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:50 pm

Wow, right on, Chien-Ming.

276 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:51 pm

[263] I personally would've yanked Tomko after the Ramirez home run, but thats just me. When CC can't get out of the 2nd inning, your offense shuts down after about the 3rd, and you're trying to avoid burning out Aceves...your options become somewhat limited.

277 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:51 pm

I have to say, Wang has looked pretty good. That one seriously bad inning, and besides that he's been pretty strong. Not dominating, but very solid.

278 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:51 pm

Baseball Gods: Here are some Baseball Fundamentals, Yankees...

Yankees: What are those?

Baseball Gods: They are what you must have to win games.

Yankees: What's "win games"?

279 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:51 pm

[271] blah, blah, blah, numbers, numbers, numbers! Bah, more basement talk!

Doesn't take a spreadsheet to count a player's ribs, does it?!?!?

280 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:51 pm

[272] isn't the bench coach contributing to some of the poor decisions we're talking about?

281 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:52 pm

[268] I notice you've taken to calling the man "Rob" rather than "Robbie" or "Robinson."

Any thoughts on the matter?

282 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:52 pm

[269] Since the Boston sweep, I have been pushing Showalter as an interim manager. I would be very happy with him.

283 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:52 pm

"but have reached a zen-like calmness now in accepting that the BoSox are our daddies..I am no longer in pain.."

I feel the same way haha

284 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:53 pm

[271] neither are the nationals. when your shortstop weighs 2 bills (not to mention a couple others) - you ain't hungry.

[270] well cult - better that inning

285 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:53 pm

Swing sooner, kid!

286 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:53 pm

[272] Maybe, but I'm not the "poor decisions" guy, I'm more the "doesn't have the right disposition for this job" guy. It's addition by subtraction, as they say.

287 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:54 pm

[276] They weren't limited though. In fact, he had the entire bullpen and an off day to follow. He could have had Robertson throw the 5th and 6th and then used Hughes and Coke in the 7th and 8th. There were many options...in fact, the only bad one was Tomko for two innings.

288 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:54 pm

I'm so depressed with the current stretch of games..going to go join this guy, it's allowed in Japan to be loopy in public http://tinyurl.com/kkox6x

where's thelarmis for some beer & jazz chat when I need him? :(

289 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:56 pm

That was a nice hit by Gardner. I didn't think I'd ever say that.

Too bad Wang doesn't get to go out for the sixth.

290 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:56 pm

[281] Ummmmm.
I don't know. it must be my unconscious mind. What do you think, doc?

291 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:56 pm


i like the cut of his jib!

AND we get to see hughsie!

it's his job, dontcha know?

292 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:56 pm

[274] "but have reached a zen-like calmness now in accepting that the BoSox are our daddies..I am no longer in pain.."

heh heh

What is the sound of 25 Yankees failing?

: )

293 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:56 pm

Gardy is really on a roll.

He'd be 2 for 2 with a walk tonight, if Melky weren't a bonehead.

After going 2 for 4 with a triple last time...

294 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:57 pm

[288] isn't he suffering through this game in person?

295 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:57 pm

[290] Are you saying you're asleep right now?

296 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:57 pm

Phil Hughes warming tells you everything you need to know about what's wrong with Girardi. On Sunday, the Yankees could have had Hughes throw 2-3 innings to preserve a lead, but instead they seem likely to use him trailing by three runs. On Sunday, Hughes was an 8th inning guy, but today he is a middle innings guy. There are no roles; there is no rhyme or reason. It's kind of like not using Mo in the 8th inning in Boston, but then brining him into the 8th inning against the Mets despite there being two outs and no men on.

297 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:58 pm

[288] He's got instruction tonight, OK...

He will also be at both remaining games in this series the next two days...

: /

298 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:58 pm

[292] see [283] ... jinx!

299 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:58 pm

[286] That I can get on board with, I don't know if I do (yet) but I understand it.

Is Girardi a better in-game tactician than Torre? Its highly doubtful. But no one can match Torre in disposition.

Making an itemized list of "things Manager X did wrong" reeks of armchair expertise. I could probably draw up a long list of things Bob Brenly did wrong in '01 or Manuel did last year...wouldn't really count for a whole lot.

300 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 8:59 pm

[293] Interesting, because we know that FC would have been a hit if he tried to throw out Brett. The two errors (Melky running, whatshisname throwing) should just cancel out.
Well, official scoring is all crap anyway.

Show/Hide Comments 301-400
301 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Wow. Easy pitch to throw, good throw, Gardner picks it easily.

302 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:00 pm

[299] I meant to say "is Torre a better tactician than Girardi?", but my point remains the same.

303 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

the kneeless wonder comes through!

304 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

if this were any other team I'd be tempted to call this a "rally"

305 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

alright pen time - does the braves pen suck or are they decent?

306 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

[298] Bah! That's not the same thing, Hawk! That's why I posted it...


307 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

Hanson wasn't very impressive despite the score.

308 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

[302] What MLB managers are good tacticians?

I'd say Francona makes fewer mistakes than others, but only marginally.

309 OldYanksFan   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

[227 "swisher is automatic out, no better than 4th outfielder"
Well... with a .887 OPS, he must be the best AO in MLB. .887 is 2nd for RFers in the AL.

310 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

[290] I think you're trying to encourage him to take himself more seriously, to come to terms with the fact that he's not a kid anymore and that he has responsibilities.

311 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:02 pm

[308] LaRussa? Leyland?

312 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

The Nats are torturing Penny in the sixth. The score is tied.

If the Nats win, does that mean the Rays automatically win the Division? I have to check my rule book.

313 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

There was something - I think in the NYT - that said that Girardi was described as "tight" by one of the Yankees (without rancor, quoth the article in question). That was my perception, and I don't think it's a good personality type for this team.

What you want with this talent level is to get out of the way as much as possible, with the occasional kick in the ass in case of complacency - a kick, with this veteran team, Girardi doesn't seem to be in a position to give.

314 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

[302] The best two I have seen were Billy Martin and Bobby Valentine.

315 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

[305] It's not bad, but prone to wildness. Of course, the Nats bullpen was downright awful and they pitched pretty well against the Yankees.

316 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

[296] Hear, hear.

317 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

That was at [308]

318 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

[310] I think he's lazy, and is trying to type fewer letters. ;-)

319 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

[306] I'm just saying, we reacted to the same thing. Complete with typed laughing ... hohoho

320 OldYanksFan   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:03 pm

[228] No, not great. But the Yankees issue is OPS with RISP when tied or behind. I'm not sure you can blame Girardi for that. Again today, a lead off double does not score.

321 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:04 pm

[312] "If the Nats win, does that mean the Rays automatically win the Division?"

Yes, due to "lack of participation"...

322 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

[310] Yikes. That does kind of fit my personality. (I have a 19 year old son, too.)

Tomorrow I'll tell you about my dreams.

323 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

[308] Personally I think you can find a few (LaRussa jumps right to mind), but thats just my point. If you wanna spend your days second guessing every single thing that goes wrong thats fine, more power to ya...but it turns into some sort of empty headed thing after a while.

"A-Rod slumping...GIRARDI'S FAULT!"

"Wang gets rocked...GIRARDI'S FAULT!"

"Swisher swinging at a first pitch strike...GIRARDI'S FAULT!"

it loses its merit after a while

324 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Way to pull the outside pitch.

325 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Oh, fucking Derek.

326 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

[308] LaRussa is a good tactician. Leyland, Cox and Sciosa are pretty good too. I am sure there are others if you think about it. But, if you are correct and all managers are basically neutral, why not just fire Girardi to light a fire. That strategy seems to have worked with the Rockies.

327 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Jeter is rather unclutch lately.

328 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

[315] thanks william.

for chrissakes another god damn dp.

329 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

[324] No kidding. That was horrendous.

330 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:05 pm

Man, Derek is Mr GIDP this year.

331 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

[307] Shit, we've been saying that about nearly every opposing pitcher for two weeks now.

332 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

jebus, jeter, your sapping my will to live right now ...

333 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

Another DP by Jeter...what a surprise.

334 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

[322] Heh he heh eh he hh e he he heh he heh heh!

335 nyyjim   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

Boy that was a surprise. Seems like that's all we do now is kill any type of rally.

336 OldYanksFan   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

[235] Swisher:
Runners On .919
Scoring Position .792
Nothing to complain about there.

337 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:07 pm

[319] I'll get you a run and coke later...

: )

338 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:07 pm

Weeping, you still here? Since this game is less interesting than it should be, I'm curious--aren't you working on a degree in medieval studies or the like? How is that going, if I may ask?

339 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:07 pm

[337] rum*

340 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:07 pm

[326] uh, Scioscia would drive *you* to madness within weeks.

341 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:08 pm

[326] i'm not totally opposed to the idea, i just think that you tend to blame girardi for too much. i certainly don't think he's a perfect manager or anything close to it, but i don't expect anyone available (including showalter) to be better. unless valentine is available. would it light a fire? maybe, but i don't think we've quite reached the point where that is yet necessary.

342 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:08 pm

sorry guys, maybe I induced that DP, I KNEW he would hit into it the moment he came up to the plate.

I hate this movie

343 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:08 pm

[340] Sciosa manages within the context of his team, and not surprisingly they always manage to exceed their "stats".

344 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:08 pm

Yeah, I'm sorry. This makes no goddamned sense at all, bringing Hughes in now and not the other day when he could have actually been a difference-maker.

I mean wtf?

345 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:08 pm

[326] I totally disagree about Scioscia and Leyland. I think they're terrible.
Cox, okay, from what I recall (I haven't watched him recently). LaRussa, yeah, not bad.

[323] No, I'm with you on this. And I'm saying, if Girardi is removed, he's very unlikely to be replaced with someone who's a better tactician.

346 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:09 pm

[340] Sciocia is SO over-rated..in fact, I think he's a terrible in-game manager, but good in the clubhouse/leadership department..from what I have read/observed at least..

347 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:11 pm

[338] Thanks for asking, mp. It's going very, very slowly. Still suffering through chapter one, which I've been working on for far too long. I've also been working on a syllabus to teach western civ in the fall. At some point, I need to really just buckle down and churn out the diss.

348 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:11 pm

Oh, good, I was afraid I was the only Scioscia-hater here.

349 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:11 pm

[342] Heh heh heh. I know the feeling.

350 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

It's Mr. "If OBP is so important, why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?"

351 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

[341] Maybe I do blame him for too much, but so many obvious second guesses present themselves. This weekend, you had Tomko and the 8th inning when he didn't send the runners while Jeter tried to figure out what exactly he would do. Against the Nats, he had another DP end a game when a SB seemed like an obvious choice. These are not obscure moves in the 7th inning. They are game changing decisions that have played a large hand in losses.

352 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

Yanks need hats for bats...

Jobu says so...

353 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

[326] Is LaRussa really a god tactician? I mean, he basically invented the zombie-bullpen-usage, with specialized closers. It was a brilliant move when he was eking something out of Eckersley and Honeycutt, but I'm sure he's progressed any. He wears little glasses, so he looks smart And he batted the pitcher 8th, which either means he's a genius or it was a panic move.

I don't really have a strong feeling on this, but I've never really been convinced that LaRussa was that great of a tactician. He does seem to win when he has players like Pujols and McGwire.

354 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

hughesy looking very very good

355 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:12 pm

Nice inning, Phil Hughes.

356 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:13 pm

[353] grrr...good tactician.

357 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:13 pm

So, why was Hughes held out of Sunday's game again?

358 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:13 pm

I think the manager's role is overrated, I would think the hitting coach and the pitching coach have a more active role in the day-to-day performance of the team.

the manager maybe makes one or two key decisions during a game, but they are reactive moves to what the game dictates. the coaching staff has a more proactive role in preparing the players for the game, which i think is more important.

359 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:13 pm

[350] ?

360 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:13 pm

[347] hang in there weeping - there is light at the end of the tunnel!

361 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:14 pm

[357] Secret rules?

362 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:14 pm

[357] My guess: they still don't quite trust Wang.

363 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:14 pm

I second Weeping's "[350]?"

364 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:15 pm

[351] well there are a lot of opportunities for second guessing when the team loses. i still think that the double steal would have been the wrong move in that nats game though.

365 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:15 pm

I like angry Hughes

366 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:15 pm

I just hate being told ad infinitum how Scioscia is "the bestest manager in the whole wide world ever!" by the national baseball media.

I mean...he's decent. He's won a World Series...he's taken a bunch of alright teams in a so-so/bad division to the playoffs and been quickly knocked out. I don't think he's done anything more impressive than (I'm just talking resume-wise here) LaRussa or Leyland.

But oh no he's "THE BEST JERRY! THE BEST!"...and did you know how much Torri Hunter loves playing in Anaheim? and did you know how "clean" their park is? and that Moreno lowered beer prices because he's just such an awesome guy?

I just hate the Angels.

367 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:15 pm

All right you pigfuckers, rally!

For the love of all things holy, rally!

368 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:15 pm

Ok, like for instance, bouncing out on the first pitch is *not* what I have in mind.

369 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:15 pm

[353] I seldom watch a LaRussa managed game and come away scratching my head. But again, if every manager is so useless, why are the Yankees paying this one $5mn and accepting such relatively poor results?

370 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:16 pm

[347] I've been there dude. 90% of the diss is psychological. At some point just you have to sit down and do it, but only you can make yourself do that.

371 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:16 pm

Well if nothing else, we saw another decent outing from Wang. Were it an AL game I'd imagine he was going to come out for the sixth so that's progress.

And now it's two outings in a row with 3 ER over five innings. It's positively Chamberlain-ian!

372 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:16 pm

[353] Still, 2500 wins is impressive..I hate that bullpen system too but Larussa is not going to be out-managed in the playoffs (ala Torre or Scioscia)..when the Cards lost in 2004 they were clearly the inferior team.

373 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:16 pm

[352] These guys are fuckin' shitty. : )

374 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:17 pm

[366] *raucous guffaws*

375 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:17 pm

[366] nice kenny bania allusion!

376 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:17 pm

[370] Difficult!!

377 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:17 pm

[359] Francoeur. That quote is on the back of the "Failcoeur" t-shirt. He said, "If OBP is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?" The funny thing is...they DO put it up on the scoreboard.

378 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:17 pm

[367] we've moved from goats to pigs?

yeah i definitely think scoisca is over-rated. he has made some brutal decisions in those red sox play-off series.

379 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:18 pm

[369] Because Cashman messed up (although I agree with him at the time).

380 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:19 pm

Its getting late early here

381 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:19 pm

[369] Do you come away scratching your head less because you have less invested? I watch the Blue Jays almost every night, and the MAriners many nights (hey, it's what we get here)--but I hardly every remembering thinking much at all about the tactical brilliance of teams managers of teams about which I know little and care about even less.

382 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:19 pm

[370] Cheers, mp. I think it's true, 90% is half mental and the other half is showing up. And yes, only I can prevent forest fires.

I'm really trying to get myself into "whatever, it's crap, just churn it out, just get it done and move on" mode to alleviate the pressure. It's sort of working.

383 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:19 pm


384 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:20 pm

[378] Yeah, you know, spice of life and all.

385 cult of basebaal   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:21 pm

[343] Scioscia is pretty rigid in following a dogmatic approach to "winning" baseball, namely scrappy small ball. Players that don't equate with his preconception of how to play to win, don't get to play. The Angels will likely never know whether Sean Rodriguez or Brandon Wood can be productive major leaguers because Scioscia would rather punch-and-judy around with the likes of Maicer Izturis.

3 weeks, I'd give you 3 weeks with Mikey (and don't forget hitting coach Mickey "Hacker")


386 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:21 pm

I've said it before but tactics in baseball is overrated.

I didn't even watch the top of the seventh - I have that little faith.

387 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:21 pm

[369] "But again, if every manager is so useless, why are the Yankees paying this one $5mn and accepting such relatively poor results?"

Because there is still too much Joe Torre on this team.

Failure to execute...

Failure to have mastery of baseball fundamentals...

Propensity to mail in effort...

Failure to perform in big games against players of equal talent...

Ring a bell?

Honestly William, firing Girardi not even a season and half into his tenure after so much bullshit from the last seven years of Joe Torre smacks of George Steinbrenner/Billy Martin lunacy!

He hasn't even managed this debacle of a team Torre left us with through two All Star Games for Christ's sakes!

"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit!"

388 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:22 pm

[377] Yeah, maybe now they do, but not back when we were kids, sluggers weighed in at 175lbs and "no pepper" was posted on the wall.

The times, they change.

389 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:22 pm

How is this team 2nd in MLB in runs scored?

390 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:23 pm

[372] True, but Torre has 2200 wins in four fewer years (unless I added wrong), and I think he's a truly awful game tactician.

Mind you, tactics are not the only part of managing.

391 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:23 pm

[388] "Sluggers weighed in at 175..."

Boog Powell. Now there was a slugger.

392 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:24 pm

[381] I tend to watch most baseball games with a keen eye toward strategy, but that's just me. Girardi's gaffe's are coming on an almost nightly basis, so I don't even think it's an issue of him being just as bad as everyone else. When you add in the indecision off the field with the poor decisions on the field, the only compelling reason to keep Girardi is because you don't want to eat his contract. As a Yankee fan with an emotional investment in way too many games, it's a helpless feeling to watch an obvious weakness in this team go unaddressed.

393 BuckFoston   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:24 pm

[387] Seriously, it's Torre's fault we're still losing? Wow.

394 Sliced Bread   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:26 pm

Hey everybody. Longtime, first time here at SNY actually. This remains the best place around to talk (and read) Yankee baseball, and what's compelled me to check in tonight is Phil. Best pitcher on the Yankees. Stuff, composure, everything-wise. Can I still gets a fuggin A-men round here?

395 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:26 pm

[391] Ah, unfortunately, he's before my time. I know not the first thing about him.

396 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:26 pm

[387] “You can’t make chicken salad out of chicken shit!”

This team has as much talent as any team in MLB.

397 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm

Boy, if this were an April game, I would not be unhappy about it. Bad results, but good signs: Wang, Hughes.

But, it's June, late June, and I'm more interested in results than signs now.

398 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm

[385] He manages a team that isn't willing to spend like the Yankees, so you have to judge him in that context. Sciosa has developed a style that has proven relatively and consistently successful. I wouldn't want him using that style with my $200mn payroll, but that's not what he has been called on to do.

399 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm

[388] Lou Gehrig --- 6' 200 lbs

Babe Ruth --- 6'2" 215 lbs

Pepper was allowed in those days...

: )

400 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm

[394] Hey, Sliced! Nice to see you.

Show/Hide Comments 401-500
401 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:27 pm

[393] It's not, but you are a world class Torre apologist.

402 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:28 pm

[394 hi sliced - we missed you 'round these parts.

hughes is definitely looking great.

403 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:28 pm

[396] Maybe on paper... clearly not on the field, Rich...

404 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:28 pm

[396] But is it spread around the field? It's in the infield and the rotation for sure. But is it in the outfield? or the bench? or the pen? I'm not gonna make the guys who are there out to be scrubs...but there are glaring weaknesses on this roster

405 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

[395] Ah. Okay.
Great, my unconscious mind and my age revealed by exchanges with you tonight! Oh well, I gets it's best to wear those things on my sleeve anyway.

[394] Sliced! Amen, bro.

406 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

Motherfucker, how 'bout that Teix, eh?

And Hughes.

He should have pitched on Sunday. Maybe he's not supposed to be used two days in a row, though? He'd pitched the previous day, iirc, no? That's the only excuse I'll accept.

407 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

Sure is nice to have a good glove at 1B.

408 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

[394] Hey slugger, where were you?

409 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

[387] So, it's Torre's fault that Girardi can't manage the game? I think most people here felt that Torre's poor game management was squandering the talent on the field. Now, the problem is the roster is inadequate? I don't buy that for one second.

410 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

[394] AMEN. He's attacking the zone better out of the pen it seems. : ) Lots o' baseball left this year.

411 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm
412 Sliced Bread   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm

Yo Weeping. You've been holding it down beautifully. You and all the Banterers, and of course the Officials: Alex, Cliff, etcetera. I've been following nearly everyday since we last bantered. Can't fully explain why I've been off the Banter, but felt compelled to weigh in tonight. Fuggin love Phil Hughes. He's gonna do us all proud.

413 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm

via Abe:

UPDATE, 9:26 p.m.: You know what’s astonishing? The Yankees still lead the wild card.

makes ya think...

about what? I have no idea, but makes ya think

414 BuckFoston   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm

[401] I have never once "apologized" for Torre. No need to. His record with the Yankees speaks for itself. What exactly should I be apologizing for?

415 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm

[410] Lots of baseball left TONIGHT. Line in the sand, remember the..ah heck, just see [4].

416 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:32 pm

We're about to be shut out.

T/his is fucking pathetic.

417 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:33 pm

[393] So these pitiful games they are losing and the way they are losing them doesn't remind you of the last several years of the Torre Era?

Wow, indeed!

418 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:33 pm

Jeez, that rocking is weird and annoyng.

419 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:33 pm

[406] Girardi's excuse was he was saving Hughes to be the "8th inning guy", which I think is absolutely ridiculous logic.

420 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:34 pm

this is goddamn infuriating

421 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:35 pm

Good God.

Are you people seeing what I'm seeing? Sweet Jesus.

[412] Thanks, sliced, that's very kind of you.

422 Just Fair   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:35 pm

[415] They might have to start building that sandcastle tomorrow. Just pathetic.

423 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:35 pm

Wow, Posada has no eye at all.

424 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:35 pm

[418] it is

someone has got to get hot on this team

425 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:35 pm

[421] All that matters is whether Hal is seeing what we are seeing, and if so, does he care?

426 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:35 pm

[228] Sorry, I was too busy doing work to respond. No, I do not. That was not my point.

427 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:36 pm

It must be hypnosis.

428 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:36 pm

[418] Yes, it is. And in fact, aren't there rules about that sort of thing?

I mean, I know it's not a balk, but can you do that ten times?

Wow, great inning, Team, great, inspired baseball.

429 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:37 pm

strike outs, feel the breeze
batting eye, where have you gone?
losing..makes me sad.

430 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:38 pm

[419] Like losing a world series game in extra innings with Jeff Weaver on the mound.

431 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:38 pm

[414] Really?

That you dissed NoMaas for their spot on posts about Torre showed exactly where you stand.

You said that Tom Gordon was the worst playoff reliever ever, dismissing how much Torre overused him, even though he has only pitched 21 playoff innings, In the height of irony, in the same post, you cited how small sample sizes don't mean much.

You also said he didn't suddenly forget how to manage, but you overlooked the fact that he only managed well when he had great talent.

I don't care if you apologize or not, but most of your posts are intended to make excuses for Torre.

432 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:38 pm

I'm optimistic about the ninth inning. Brett will get on, then Damon with a pinch hit safety. If Jeter can stay out of the GIDP...

Ah, who am I kidding?

433 BuckFoston   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:38 pm

[429] Was that a haiku? Nice.

434 Bama Yankee   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:39 pm

Hey Sliced, good to see you back around these parts... :-)

435 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:40 pm

[431], et al.

Let's not revisit the later Torre years. Think of the children! Think of me!

436 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:40 pm

[431] You betcha! See [4].

437 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:40 pm

[435] The children!

438 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:41 pm

[435] Very Grouchovian line, monkeypants.

439 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:42 pm

[430] I would have never believed that the Yankees would wind up with a weaker game manager than Torre, but maybe it makes sense when you consider that Girardi probably was influenced greatly by Joe.

Just like I can't kill Tomko when Girardi brings him into the game, I guess I have to start giving Joe a pass because he isn't the one deciding his fate. Ultimately, this issue falls squarely in the lap of Hal. Hopefully, he isn't too busy running the business to realize that the team on the field is sinking fast. Ironically, Girardi's ongoing awful management kind of provides a glimmer of hope because it is a problem that is easily solved, assuming that someone is actually minding the store.

440 BuckFoston   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:42 pm

[431] what is it with you and NoMaas, is that your blog? BTW why do they hate Torre so much did he sleep with their mothers?

I answered those comments here:

I am not going to do it again. Seriously, what is your proble with Torre? Tell us how many WS would a decent manager have won from 96-07? 4 is the number to beat.

441 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:43 pm

[439] I can't blame Hal. It's really God's fault.

442 RagingTartabull   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:43 pm

Ironically enough I think it was only after Torre was given a roster full of "great talent" that his shortcomings as a manager began to show.

443 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:43 pm

Of course.

444 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:44 pm

[435] Sadly, with Girardi, we are revisiting the later Torre years.

445 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:44 pm

Yeah, that's always the danger with Robertson.

446 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:44 pm

after not losing a game in which they gave up 3 or less runs, they will now lose 4 of their last 6 games giving up 3 or less runs.

447 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:45 pm

[446] Not so, sir!!!

448 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:45 pm

Well, now that we're four behind, maybe that gives us license to rally in the ninth only to leave the tying runner stranded at third. You know, just to torture us a little, like Sunday night.

449 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:45 pm

[441] What does Bob Sheppard have to do with personnel decisions?

450 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:46 pm

[446] thanks braves, that stat really bothered me. losing while giving up more than 3 runs makes me feel so much better.

I hate this movie

451 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:46 pm

Torre, Girardi
Why such endless debate here?
Yankee fans, we breathe

452 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:46 pm

[449] Touche.

453 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:47 pm

Stop shilling for Ford, Derek. Just hit the fucking ball and stay out of the dp.

454 tocho   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:47 pm

BTW, they yanks will not lead in the WC anymore. tied with toronto...

455 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:48 pm

[409] No, it's Torre no longer holding Jeter's bat... and telling everyone and their dog how "special" he is win or lose. It's the favoritism he played to such an extent that's the reason why it costs more money for FA's to come to the Bronx instead of them clammering to be Yankees for less. It's the "core can do no wrong," and "I can do no wrong," when they've been losing for years. It's schlubs like Francesa, thinking Torre and the '98 Yankees are coming through the door. Even in his book of bullshit, the only regret he had in 12 years was not pulling his team off the field in the "Midge Game"! Are you kidding me? I have more than one regret from last week!

Girardi never stood a chance to turn this around, at least not to date he hasn't...

The best player on the team is telling him "I can play, Skip!" only to go over his head to Cashman and the Steinbrenner Brothers for days off! Does he rest? Hell no! He goes friggen clubbing to South Beach!

Great priorities by the $30M man of truth and integrity!

He's been given a deck of several good prospects and Tex! The rest are jokers!

Try to play cribbage with that!

You can't...

456 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:48 pm

[442] I still maintain his shortcomings were exposed with the loss of Zimmer, which takes nothing away from Torre. Joe was the right man at the right time for the Yankees, but that ceased to be the case toward the end. Perhaps Joe's early success earned him the extra year or two? Girardi, however, has done nothing to earn that right. The Yankees need to move on from this mistake and finally cast aside the Torre shadow. Showalter not only is a well thought of game manager, but in many ways his hiring would be going back to the Future.

457 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:48 pm

wait, can we also please discuss the circumstances surrounding the end of torre's tenure here?

458 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:48 pm

ugh. i rush home to watch the end of this?! fuck atlanta! fuck the braves! they best win tomorrow when i'm there. day after that too... : /

459 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:49 pm

[440] Nope, I just think they are smart people, and when they are unfairly attacked, I respond.

"Did he sleep with their mothers?"

Wow, that is so clever. Can I use it?

I'll read and respond to it later.

I think his importance to the franchise is overrated, but to be sure:

He was better than Girardi is now.

I think Showalter would have won more than four rings from 1996-2007 because even though he may not have won in 1996, he wouldn't have blown 2003 and 2004.

460 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:49 pm

Rafael, fast ball
Gardy, choke up on the bat
you can't steal first, son

461 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:49 pm

[457] You bastard.

462 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:50 pm

[439] I agree that Girardi had been very disappointing, but I still think he's been miles better than Torre. I think, perhaps, time has dimmed just how frigging awful and maddening Torre was. My operating thesis is that if Torre managed this team, Angel Berroa would be starting at 1B or LF, Robertson would not be in the BP (or he would be there rotting), Joba would be in the BP (after proving his grit) but his arm would fall off after 40 consecutive appearances, Swisher would be forever banished--c. 900 OPS and all--because he looks bad in the field, and...well, you get my drift.

463 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:50 pm

He just watched strike three right down the dish.


464 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:51 pm

I think the question after the game should be, "Joe, do you regret at all not bringing Hughes into Sunday's game? Wouldn't it have been better to have him protect a lead instead of a 3-0 deficit"?

I'd love to see Girardi's face turn red on that one.

465 Sliced Bread   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:52 pm

Bama!, monkeypants!, ms. oct.!, RI!, william, et al. I've missed the rapport, but honestly havent felt I've had anything to add to the banter since last fall. I'm 43 now, an age where one can easily question how disussions could go on without one. Check it, Paul Simon did Hearts and Bones around this age, which is a fair barometer. Yo, not feeling sorry for meself at all, just haven't felt compelled to join the band in a bit. But like I said, this is still the best place for the rapport, and this franchise (as much as it has in a looooong time) needs thoughtful souls behind it. Phil's shit is something to rally around, and be excited about. That's all I got.

466 51cq24   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:53 pm

you know, none of this would have happened if torre had pulled the team off the field in cleveland

467 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:54 pm

[457][461] LOL.

468 BuckFoston   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:54 pm

[459] I think that line would be something which would be right at home on their site. After all, are you saying they wouldn't resort to personal attacks or belittling others?

469 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:54 pm

Good job, Damon.

Let the agony begin.

470 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:54 pm

odds are good Jetes will ground into a game ending DP

471 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:55 pm

"X pinch running for Damon."

Weird to hear that.

472 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:56 pm

[465] Phil's the phuture. Now if we could just get out of this stinking present.

Check in again soon, Sliced.

473 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:56 pm

[468] Whatever they do, they do it in a way that makes most people laugh. Maybe you should take notes.

474 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:56 pm

[465] I am sure you had alot to add. I kind of drifted away after the move from the Toaster, but the excitement of the free agent signings brought me back on board. Unfortunately, the overwhelming topic in my universe has been one that probaby has many here hoping I also consider a hiatus. Maybe that's not such a bad idea.

475 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:57 pm

At least he avoided the dp.

476 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:57 pm

If it weren't for bad luck they'd have no luck at all. Well, I guess it was sort of lucky that Jeter lined out instead of hitting a sharp one hopper.

477 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:57 pm

Whatever his faults, Torre did manage to do for twelve years in a row what Girardi failed to do in his first chance: Make the play-offs. Not to mention the Yanks won the pennant most of those years.

478 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:57 pm

hopefully this is Berroa's last appearance in pinstripes...

479 BuckFoston   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:57 pm

[473] I thought it was funny. I laughed.

480 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:58 pm

[475] shocking.

481 monkeypants   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:58 pm

Damn, this is a drag.

Tomorrow, definitely line-in-the-sand time.

482 RIYank   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:58 pm

Bad bats.
See youse.

483 randym77   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:58 pm


484 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:59 pm

[465] Alas Sliced Bread... they took Paul's Kodochrome away...

It's a sign of the times...

: /

485 Rich   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:59 pm

[479] Why am I not surprised?

486 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:59 pm

What an atrocious game.

What's that, like six runs in the last five games?


Goodnight, Team. I'm going out of town for a couple weeks, will catch up with you monkeys then. We'll probably be seven games out by the time I return.


487 ms october   ~  Jun 23, 2009 9:59 pm

is this team ever going to win again?

damn i thought they were heading back on the right path the other day - but it is hard to feel good about them right now.

the offense just isn't doing anything right now.

488 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:00 pm

I'm almost losing interest in this team. It's not just that they're losing, it's that they stink and are boring.

To think some of us hoped the nadir was the Gardner catch loss. Fat chance. This feels like it may go on forever. And let's be honest, the team has struggled most of the year. They had that one streak but before and after that, things have looked anything but promising.

489 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:01 pm

Forget about whether you think Girardi should be fired. The more relevant question is at what point would he be fired? If they lose this series and then the one to the Mets, I think that could set the wheels in motion. If i was confident of that, I might actually root for the outcome, but alas that's just a guess. Any other opinions? Are we stuck with Girardi for the entire season?

490 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:01 pm

[476] Albert King!

another bad loss
stuck in rainy season here
cry over loss of "O"

491 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:01 pm

Ha, poor Wang got hung with another "L"

492 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:02 pm

[488] You hit on the key point: aside from one stretch, this is exactly how this team has played all year. As nice as those comeback wins were, eventually playing from behind leads to alot of near misses like Wednesday and Saturday.

493 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:03 pm

[489] I would hope that losing these next to series would seal the deal. By all rights it should. For pete's sake, he's the manager, it's not that precious.

494 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:05 pm

It was funny when Kay said that Robertson had given up a "big run". Did anyone really think that run meant a goddamned thing?

495 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:05 pm

[494] Not in this house, Hawk...

496 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:05 pm

This is shaping up to be a very ugly baseball season in NY.

497 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:06 pm

and the shit sox have hung 6 more on the board in their half of the 8th. unfuckingreal... : /

498 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:07 pm

[496] i have a feeling i'm gonna be seeing some ugly baseball live in person over the next two nights. : /

499 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:08 pm

[497] best team in baseball, man..we got a lot of catching up to do!

500 williamnyy23   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:10 pm

[497] Good team beat the Nationals...

Show/Hide Comments 501-503
501 PJ   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:10 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but what I remember most about the recent title years was the pitching and the small ball. Once Torre went to waiting on the three-run home runs, that usually didn't come, the titles stopped.

This team seems stuck in the middle of not having the fundamentals to play small ball and waiting on the three-run HR that never comes.

I'm just sayin'...

502 thelarmis   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:11 pm

but the Nats have Cy Lannon and Cy Stammen!!! : /

503 The Hawk   ~  Jun 23, 2009 10:12 pm

New thread ...

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"This ain't football. We do this every day."
--Earl Weaver