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fight

Yanks need a win not a brawl.

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1 a.O   ~  Sep 16, 2009 5:14 pm

What Jorge did that was imprudent was coming back to fight the guy. But that's it.

The "elbow" was *nothing* -- watch the replay and you will see that he barely brushed the guy's glove. He's coming in to score at full speed and the guy is in la la land -- not where he's supposed to be. Not backing up the throw, that's for sure. What's he doing there? Why is he offended and yelling about a player brushing his glove while he's in his path?

2 Shaun P.   ~  Sep 16, 2009 5:22 pm

Please, I beg you all - if you haven't already, go to Deadspin and read all the pieces the FireJoeMorgan guys wrote today, including the ones that take apart articles written about Derek Jeter. Especially those ones. So hilarious, my sides still hurt.

As for tonight - cripes I hope its a crisp, clean game with no fights.

3 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 5:26 pm

I thought I was having some weird Seinfeld flashbacks until I realized there are some funky bass grooves in that video. Bass grooves, right. Or am I that musically challenged? : ) Back to work so I get to assault my ears with The Fan as I grade. Most people seriously need to have their telephone privileges revoked.

4 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 5:26 pm

[1] I think he did more than barely brush his glove. He elbowed him, and you can see it push the guy's shoulder back.

And the umpire ejected Posada immediately. I think that's what started the brawl. Jorgie decided to get his money's worth, if he was being ejected anyway.

I gotta say...it was pretty funny, seeing 150-lb Edwar dragging 250-lb Barajas away. I didn't know the kid had it in him.

5 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 6:08 pm

Ted Blagojevich going with the Sonny Crockett facial hair today, I see.

[2] God I missed them

6 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 6:23 pm

That each player received a three game suspension supports the view that both were 50% at fault, which seemed obvious to me.

7 Diane Firstman   ~  Sep 16, 2009 6:29 pm

RIP Henry Gibson, dead at 73.

(fond memories of Laugh-In)

8 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Sep 16, 2009 6:50 pm

Jorgie get suspended? Mr, OK Jazz Singapore today, only soccer on tv...
[2]FJM stuff, got to go check it out!
Anyone else just a leeeeeeetle bit nervous about the Red Sox recent hot streak?

9 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:01 pm

FJM clip "True story: when I graduated from college, I told my parents that my dream was to one day write an angry rant about Terry Pendleton's naïve comments about the late Farrah Fawcett that originally appeared in an online article written for mlb.com. Livin' the dream, Ma!)"

too funny!

10 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:10 pm

[6] I don't think that necessarily follows, at least if you're talking starting the fight. Shelley Duncan also got a three-game suspension, but he had nothing to do with starting the fight.

11 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:15 pm

Holy cow. Edwar was fined? That doesn't seem fair. He was trying to break up the fight.

12 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:19 pm

I love FJM as much as anyone. But does anyone else get the sense, and this might just be a little Yankee homerism on my part, that the whole "if you think Jeter should win MVP then you must be a flat-Earther who couldn't find his way out of a Bill James essay" meme is rapidly turning into (as Christopher Hitchens would say) "the joke that stupid people make"??

13 OldYanksFan   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:33 pm

[2] Jesus Is The Derek Jeter Of Christianity
The case against Derek for MVP is very true. I love the guy, but he's got the 2nd worst OPS of any starting position. I mean, he;s still been great but really...

We know how vital Posada is to this team, with his .850-.900 OPS.
Now... add 100 OPS pts, make him faster, greatly improve his defense...
and you have Joe Mauer. MVP. There should not be a question.

14 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:33 pm

[10] I don’t think that necessarily follows, at least if you’re talking starting the fight.

If Carlson hadn't made the conscious decision to stand at homeplate while Posada scored, Posada wouldn't have been able to brush him with an elbow. Plus, just because you are brushed with an elbow, it doesn't give you license to yell invectives at a person.

So again, I really think that both are equally at fault, and apparently, so did Big Bob Watson.

15 OldYanksFan   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:33 pm

[12] It is obviously intentionally over the top.

16 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:37 pm

[13] Jeter also has the 2nd best OPS among AL SSs. A player's position does provide context. Of course, that doesn't mean that he deserves to beat out Mauer, because he doesn't.

17 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:42 pm

[14] Maybe it was both their faults, but I don't think you can say the suspensions and fines say anything about who started it.

I think Carlson got three days and the largest fine because he's the one who punched Girardi in the face. Hitting another player is one thing, hitting a manager is something else.

18 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:42 pm

[15] Clearly, and I'm not taking them to task at all...seriously I think those guys are great.

but something like the piece Tommy Craggs did a few days ago is done with a completely straight face. (http://tinyurl.com/kujaox)

it becomes off-putting after a while. I'm not saying that Jeter MUST win the MVP, I'm just saying it is possible to make the case and not be a complete moron.

19 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:46 pm

Hey. Where's the damn game thread???

20 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:52 pm

[17] Usually the aggressor gets a longer suspension. That no one did is telling, imo.

Girardi told Francesa on WFAN that he was elbowed by one of his own players.

21 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:54 pm

WTG, Gaudin.

22 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:54 pm

Oh, that Chad Gaudin.

23 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:55 pm

welp say hello to Aceves

24 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:57 pm

3 hard hit balls including a shot off his arm. Ugh. Hang tight, Gaudin.

25 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 7:58 pm

Yeesh.
I wonder if there's an actual Major League Baseball game on somewhere.

26 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:00 pm

Not too lucky.

27 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:00 pm

[20] Carlson did get the larger fine, though, according to AP.

AP also quotes the umpire as saying Posada's elbow shove of Carlson was "very unsportsmanlike" and a "cheap shot."

And he ejected Posada immediately, before there was time for "invective."

And Posada has a stiff neck because of the fight. Just great.

28 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:00 pm

That's more like it. Good play.

29 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:02 pm

[27] So Carlson was > 50% at fault? ;)

That comment was a joke.

I'm not saying that Posada is smart.

30 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:04 pm

A-Rod's defense has been much improved lately.

31 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:06 pm

Myles Brad died today...I really hope that, for his own sake, Bobby Knight keeps his mouth shut

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/17/sports/17brand.html?ref=sports

32 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:12 pm

[29] I don't think Carlson did anything that could be called unsportsmanlike or a cheap shot before the brawl. Was he an angel? No way. He threw behind Posada, and I absolutely believe it was intentional.

But that's part of baseball. Look at it from their side, and it seems totally justified. We plunked Encarnacion after he homered off us, then we hit their star player. You knew retaliation was coming.

Pity poor Melancon. I'm sure he didn't mean it, but if he keeps doing it, no one's going to believe him.

33 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:14 pm

I like an ump who calls a strike even when the pitcher misses the target by a wide margin. Just sayin'.

34 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:18 pm

Hairston continues to show that he is a bad defensive player...at a variety of positions.

35 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:18 pm

Jeez. Jerry needs to change his cleats or something.

36 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:21 pm

I like how Gaudin is trapping the batters into hitting the ball hard and a long way, so that our outfielders can make catches near the wall. Hairston seems to have missed that page in the playbook, but still.

37 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Giambi-esque. : O

38 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Almost any time a player of Teix's caliber as a FA, the Yankees need to sign him.

39 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:22 pm

Okay, I think I'm prepared to commit myself: Teixeira is a better player than Hairston. I know these things are very subjective, but I'm pretty well convinced.

40 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:23 pm

[37] Giambi would have missed home plate by 20 feet.

41 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:23 pm

[37] True, Teix's throw (from his knees) was very comparable to one of GIambi's throws.

42 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:23 pm

I think Melky is better at coming in on balls, and Gardner is better going toward the wall.

43 OldYanksFan   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:28 pm

By the way, our Magic Number for the PS as the WC is 6 (Texas)

44 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:29 pm

[40] yeah but he probably would've said or done something hilarious in the process

45 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:30 pm

The Reds are honoring Hall of Fame writer Hal McCoy tonight. McCoy is a victim of the newspaper problems we've sometimes discussed here. His paper, the Dayton Daily News, will no longer be covering baseball for financial reasons, and so they don't need their beat writer any more.

Hal McCoy is legally blind. He almost quit when he lost his vision. He likes to tell the story of how Aaron Boone convinced him not to. He likes to think Boone's walkoff homer for the Yanks was his reward for that.

46 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:30 pm

That isn't right.

47 OldYanksFan   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:30 pm

[43] We may well clinch at Home against Boston, or in LA.

48 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:31 pm

Damn you Aaron Hill. Bastard.

49 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:31 pm

Here we go again.....................................................................

50 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:32 pm

[44] Very true.

Giambi seems to be thriving in the thin air of Colorado.

51 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:32 pm

[40,41] So quickly you guys forget all those 3-6-3's Giambi started. lol.

52 OldYanksFan   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:32 pm

[31] Nice site. Interesting. Good clean, readable design too.

53 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:33 pm

Unlucky with BABIP.

54 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:33 pm

Crud.
Lousy pitcher, hard hits, no Score Truck.

55 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:35 pm

Plus, just because you are brushed with an elbow, it doesn’t give you license to yell invectives at a person.

Awww, po widdle Posada got his fee-wings hurt?

He should've left it at the bump. He got his "shot" in, there was nothing further to do or to prove. Instead he goes after a scrub reliever. Now he has a stiff neck. At least he has time off to rest... And seeing that Joba, the consistently brittle AJ, Teix, and CC were all in the middle of the scrum, a lot could've gone wrong over some picayune bs.

I'll say it again, Posada was a dumbass.

56 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:36 pm

[50] I'm happy for him. It kinda sucks that the disappointments of 2002-08 will most likely go down as "The Giambi Era"

57 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:37 pm

Derek Jeter/WR

58 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:38 pm

Raf,

We know where you stand. Let it go.

59 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:39 pm

[57] Ooops!

60 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:40 pm

[59] No way a football goes through his legs.

61 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:40 pm

Runs...

62 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:41 pm

[60] Derek Jeter/C?

63 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:43 pm

Hooray for Torii!

64 jeaner   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:44 pm

[56] On the other hand, as I frequently tell my Orioles fan friends ( I live in DC, I run into them) it has been since the addition of Mike Mussina that the Yankees have failed to win the World Series. I'm thinking good karma for the Bombers this year.

Speaking of DC, home of the team who allegedly tried to get Tex, Adam Dunn, the second prize, actually has more home runs. Oh, and an often woeful glove, but still.

65 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:44 pm

[62] He'd have to change his view on PEDs.

66 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:45 pm

[64] Are you really arguing that signing Moose was a negative?

67 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:49 pm

Including tonight, 4 out of the last 6 games have been mildly brain numbing.

68 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:51 pm

I really think the Yanks are playing half-assed. They think they have their post-season ticket punched.

69 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:54 pm

According to Pete Abe, Ian Kennedy pitched 3 perfect innings and struck out 6 tonight for Scranton in the IL finals. Good for him.

70 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:56 pm

[67] Seriously. I'm less rooting on the team then wondering what's going to happen next, in a half-hearted sort of way.

71 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 8:59 pm

[69] Game's tied, 1-1. Scranton lost the first game. I was thinking of going to tomorrow night's game. If they lose tonight, tomorrow might be the last game of the year.

72 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:00 pm

The Yankees can't possibly lose four of six to this awful team, can they?

73 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:02 pm

Why wasnt the infield in for Barajas?
Just wondering.

74 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:07 pm

Durham leading now, 2-1. Thanks, Igawa.

75 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:08 pm

Time to kick butt.

76 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:11 pm

This is brual

77 jeaner   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:13 pm

[66] Just a factual statement. Although, I do think that going after Mussina was part of the back-to-the-future Steinbrenner big money moves that contradicted the philosophy and the results of the Steinbrenner-banned-from-baseball era.

78 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:13 pm

Jesus Christ, its the fucking Blue Jays. BEAT THEM.

79 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:14 pm

[72] Sure, why not. Wouldn't be the first time they play poorly against an inferior opponent.

80 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:14 pm

I jokingly said that last night's scrum would at least fire up the troops for a few days. Joke indeed. boo

81 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:16 pm

[77] Big money moves like Danny Tartabull? They went after Cone, Bonds and Maddux as well.

82 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:16 pm

[77] It's also factual that they haven't won a WS since Clay Bellinger left.

How do you think they were going to go back to the "Steinbrenner-banned-from-baseball era" when they had failed to draft any quality pitchers?

It is precisely because of that failure that signing Mussina was one of the best free agent signing the Yankees ever made.

You are seriously confusing cause and effect.

83 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:19 pm

[79] Playing teams like Baltimore and Toronto should have been the Yankees chance to lock up the division. Losing four of five and (four of six over all to Toronto) would be a major missed opportunity. This team is playing and being managed like they've already got the playoffs, division and home field wrapped up.

And as if on cue, here's Bruney.

84 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:20 pm

Why is Brian Bruney in a close game?

85 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:20 pm

How do you think they were going to go back to the “Steinbrenner-banned-from-baseball era” when they had failed to draft any quality pitchers?

If you look at the transactions made, during that timespan, that really wasn't as big a problem as you think.

86 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:21 pm

Does Joe Girardi realize that if he doesn't start stepping on the gas, they are going to be the author of an epic colapse? Why is Damon sitting, Hairston batting 2ND and Hughes not in this game?

When are the auditions going to stop?

87 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:23 pm

Hey Joe. Red Sox tied the game. If we lose and they win, its 5.5. It was NINE on Friday.

But hey, by all means, use Brian Bruney.

88 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:23 pm

[86] What do you think the odds are that the Yanks collapse?

89 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:23 pm

[86] oh please. i want my guys rested and geared up for the playoffs. Not three weeks too early.

90 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:23 pm

Red Sox winning. But at least we saw what Bruney can do.

91 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:24 pm

i see the panic is out in full force.

92 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:25 pm

When is Girardi going to figure out that Bruney absolutely blows. No excuse for using him here, at all.

93 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:25 pm

Oh good. I was hoping we'd see a pennant race this year.

94 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:25 pm

This team is playing and being managed like they’ve already got the playoffs, division and home field wrapped up

I will be very surprised if the Yankees miss the playoffs. As for the division and home field, given the random nature of the playoffs I don't think they make that much of a difference. IIRC, there isn't a correlation between wins and playoff success.

hmmmm, not sure why Hairston didn't throw home...

95 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:26 pm

The Halos left Saunders in a mere 9 batters too long.
Scioscia is the overratedest manager in baseball.

96 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:26 pm

If you look at the transactions made, during that timespan, that really wasn’t as big a problem as you think.

That's almost like asking me to prove a negative.

The question that needs to be asked is would the Yankees have had more options and more depth if they had drafted more quality starters.

How can the answer to that question be no?

It's one of the primary reasons why they had to replace Clemens, Wells, El Duque, and Pettitte with Brown, Weaver, and Vazquez.

Mussina, otoh, was a terrific replacement.

I'm starting to HATE Hairston.

97 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:26 pm

[91] We've manufactured a pennant race in five days.

98 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:27 pm

[86] Hughes isn't in the game because it isn't the 8th inning. Thought everyone knew that. :)

99 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:27 pm

I'm not panicked at all, but this team is playing like shit.

100 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:27 pm

The Yanks aren't going to miss the playoffs- no chance. But I'd still like to wrap the East up a little tighter before throwing games away. I do think playing either 3 games or 4 games at Fenway could make a huge difference.

Show/Hide Comments 101-200
101 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:28 pm

[88] When you consider who the Yankees play over the last 9 games, I think it is unnecessarily high. The Yankees were a locomotive and Girardi decided to stop stoking the coals. It's really a shame that the Yankees championship aspirations are seriously impinged by the incompetence of their manager.

102 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:29 pm

[94] If you think (and it seems like Girardi agrees) that the division and homefield are not important, fine. I just hope that by the time the Yankees start trying to win again, we haven't created a situation we can't dig ourselves out of.

103 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:29 pm

[101] So what do you think the odds are? (I'm interested in what you consider to be "seriously impinged".)

104 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:29 pm

It all started with Jeter's hit record.

105 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:30 pm

Wow...Boston is now up 5-3. In a few innings, the lead will be down to 5.5. Someone better get word to Girardi that this race for the division isn't over...almost entirely because of how he has handled the last week.

106 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:30 pm

It’s one of the primary reasons why they had to replace Clemens, Wells, El Duque, and Pettitte with Brown, Weaver, and Vazquez.

And of the 4 guys you listed, only one Pettitte was drafted. The rest were free agents. The draft is but only one way to acquire players.

Weaver and Vazquez were the young cost controlled starters that you seem to crave. Were you against the deals made at the time?

107 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:30 pm

[100] There are two ways to do this. Go full gas until you have a lock-safe margin beyond all doubt. Start easing up when the odds are in your favor and if things start to pull in on ya (which is NOT when the division lead is still >5 games in my opinion) gear up earlier than planned. Either way, you want to gear up that last week of the season imo. I just prefer the latter approach. I think it is smarter. But I think both have merit.

108 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:30 pm

[102] It's not very important. This is pretty clear. The Yankees have an excellent road record. There's plainly some advantage to playing a seventh game at home, but let's face it, the chances of playing a seventh game in the ALCS are small to begin with.

109 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:30 pm

[106] er, Clemens was traded to NY

110 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:31 pm

[89] Well, hopefully they'll be nice rested for a first round series against Anaheim. Then, after they get bounced again, they can rest all off season. That formula has certainly worked for this team in the past.

111 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:31 pm

[100] By playing the B team, using the C relievers and generally playing like shit against lousy baseball teams, we've turned a laugher of a race competitive. Why should I believe that will just stop when the Yankees need to get going again?

112 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:32 pm

personally I'd rather have the Yankees have a listless week now than 3 weeks from now

113 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:32 pm

[110] Oh, so what do you think are the odds that the Yankees play a first round against Anaheim?

114 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:33 pm

[103] I'd say they have at least a 30% chance of blowing this. The impingement stems from more than that though...if the Yankees aren't on the very top of their game, I expect Girardi's poor management to cost them in the playoffs.

115 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:34 pm

[110] The Yanks have been bounced from the 1st round when they were rested, they've been bounced from the first round when they weren't.

116 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:34 pm

[106] Raf,

You are changing the question.

My point is that the Yankees would be better off if they drafted better. You can't rebut that.

To answer your new question, being able to get players of Clemens, Wells, and El Duque's character is part luck and also a function of lack of true revenue sharing in prior CBAs.

Because that changed, Weaver, Vazquez et al were the best options.

As I have pointed out to you before, one of the best features of growing your own is that they learn to play in NY at a very early age. They never know another situation. With the Weavers and Vazquezes, whether or not they can play in NY is all projection.

Again, drafting well increases the margin for error.

117 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:35 pm

[114] You think the Yankees have a 30% chance of losing the division???
Seriously, is there any way we can actually bet? I'll give you 10 to 1 (and feel like I'm stealing your money).

118 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:35 pm

[112] Its one thing to play listlessly. Its another to punt games almost intentionally. How many times have we seen fringe major leaguers like Edwar, Bruney and Dunn this week? Why is Jerry Hairston batting second?

119 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:35 pm

[108] The Yankees have an excellent road record, but not at Fneway or Anaheim. If the Yankees don't think the homefield is important here (not to mention having to play both Boston and Anaheim), they'll be watching the ALCS from home. This team does not have the pedigree to coast into the playoffs. They need every advantage they can get.

120 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:36 pm

[118] Why is Jerry Hairston batting second?

Miguel Cairo syndrome?

121 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:37 pm

[115] Exactly...which is why I don't see the merit in resting players three weeks before the post season.

122 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:37 pm

[114] so you think they must go full gas now to play well in the playoffs in three weeks?

123 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:37 pm

[117] If the Yankees continue to play and manage as if the games don't matter, why can't they blow this? Or do you think we'll hit a predetermined point where Girardi is going to say "okay, now we try to win again?"

124 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:37 pm

Must. Take. Advantage.

125 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:38 pm

Damon has sucked lately. Time to change that.

126 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:39 pm

[117] If Girardi keeps managing to rest players and not to win, then yes, I think the chances are that high. Boston has 7 games coming up against Baltimore and KC. The Yankees go to the west coast and face King Felix in one game. A 2-4 / 6-1 swing would yield a lead of 2 games!!!

127 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:39 pm

[119] The Yankees have an excellent road record, but not at Fneway or Anaheim.
Small sample size.

If the Yankees don’t think the homefield is important here (not to mention having to play both Boston and Anaheim), they’ll be watching the ALCS from home.

So you are absolutely certain they will be playing a fifth game in the Wild Card game. (Because otherwise home field advantage will make no difference.) That's prescient.

This team does not have the pedigree to coast into the playoffs.

Uh.
Pedigree??

128 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:39 pm

[122] There's no middle ground between full gas and rolling backwards downhill? At the time, I had no problem with playing Friday's game like we had a nine game lead, because we did. I also never assumed we would continue doing that for the rest of the week.

129 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:41 pm

[122] I think you need to go full gas to win MLB games, and you should try to win until you have an insurmountable leade.

130 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:42 pm

[126] Baseball Prospectus thinks there is a 3% chance that the Yankees fail to win the Division. So I figure giving you 10 to 1 odds gives me a nice cushion and still pretty much fleeces you. (If I get pot odds like that in poker, I have to strain to keep myself from drooling.)

131 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:42 pm

Come on Johnny.

132 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:42 pm

NOW HUGHES IS UP?

133 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:42 pm

Still sucking.

134 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:43 pm

He tipped that?

135 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:43 pm

[127] You honestly think sample size is relevant? You don't think Boston and Anaheim are much better off playing the Yankees at home? Seriously?

136 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:43 pm

My point is that the Yankees would be better off if they drafted better. You can’t rebut that.

Of course I can. How many pitchers have made it that have been drafted?

Because that changed, Weaver, Vazquez et al were the best options

Weaver, Vazquez and Brown were salary dumps

With the Weavers and Vazquezes, whether or not they can play in NY is all projection.

The "some players don't have what it takes to play in NY" meme again. So did Weaver bomb in Anaheim, Seattle and St. Louis because he couldn't handle the pressure of playing with them?

Again, drafting well increases the margin for error.

Tis but a small part, one that is often overplayed. There have been more players that have drafted and failed than succeeded.

137 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:45 pm

[130] When BP runs their projections, do they assume each team is fielding their best team? I realize you like to look at generalizations when making your point, but the context in this situation is clear. If the Yankees continue to treat these games as warmups, they'll be hoping on a flight to Anaheim to open the playoffs.

138 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:45 pm

I'm not so sure Joe "wants" a split, Michael. I don't think he'd reject it, but whatever happens happens.

139 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:46 pm

[129] umm we're still 6-4 inour last 10 games and we still have a 6.5 game lead in the division and a 6 game lead on homefield advantage. There are ONLY 16 games left. The odds of losing either lead or really small even for the Nationals. I think we're ok. Could lightning strike and have us lose one or both? yes, but I don't bet on it or strategize for it.

140 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:47 pm

[139] Would you be comfortable playing the Red Sox next week with a three game lead?

141 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:48 pm

[139] Take a look at the schedule....it tilts toward Boston after this series. The Yankees really needed to win this game, and the way to do that was not to play a quasi-A team today.

142 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:49 pm

[135] Of course sample size is relevant. It's always relevant. I must be misunderstanding you.

I do think the Sox and Angels are better at home. Whether they're "much" better depends on how you'd quantify "much", I guess. I would say it's a small advantage. Against the Yankees, they might be 55-45 at home.

143 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:49 pm

Why not pinch-hit with Posada here? D'oh!

144 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:49 pm

Oh, look, the Red Sox stopped trying! What a break for us.

145 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:49 pm

[136]

Of course I can. How many pitchers have made it that have been drafted?

How does that alter the unassailable fact that the Yankees would be better off if they drafted well?

Weaver, Vazquez and Brown were salary dumps.

So was Clemens. Salary dumps like Clemens are rarer under subsequent CBAs. That's my point.

The “some players don’t have what it takes to play in NY” meme again. So did Weaver bomb in Anaheim, Seattle and St. Louis because he couldn’t handle the pressure of playing with them?

I never said it was the only hurdle, merely another one. Ask Randy Johnson, although granted, he was a physically diminished pitcher in NY.

Tis but a small part, one that is often overplayed. There have been more players that have drafted and failed than succeeded.

Who knew?

Drafting well helps ensure success. It's not really that complicated.

146 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:49 pm

[140] That's also the point...part of the "odds" of the Yankees holding on also include a tight last 10 games, which clearly wouldn't allow the Yankees to tuneup before the playoffs at the right time. So, basically, they would rest in mid-September, but have to step it up later on. Makes no sense.

147 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:49 pm

[141] The team we put on the field isn't as bad as the order we put them in and the fact that Bruney was allowed to come in and make the situation worse.

148 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:50 pm

[140] No but it probably won't happen. If we play .333 ball the rest of the way our magic number cuts in half. If we play .500 ball it cuts in 2/3. I might get hit by a car tomorrow but I don't plan for it.

149 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:50 pm

[142] My point is even though the sample is "small" this season, the home advantage of both teams is wll established over time.

150 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:51 pm

[137] Well, they assume that the teams field the teams they've been fielding. Nobody puts their best team on the field every day. (Notice that the Red Sox are playing without Martinez and Youkalis today, and also yesterday.)

151 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:51 pm

[143] yep...

152 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:51 pm

I'd PH here.

153 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:52 pm

Stop playing this POS.

154 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:52 pm

[149] Oh, okay, fair point.

155 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:52 pm

[147] My only beef with the lineup is that Swisher should be batting second

156 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:52 pm

Nope, batting Hairston second wasn't a big deal...not at all. Who could possibly foresee a problem using one of your weaker hitters at the top of the lineup.

157 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:53 pm

[148] And what point do you think we'll start playing to win games again? Or do you think we'll just win enough by accident in that time to make the series irrelevant?

158 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:53 pm

[150] Youkilis is hurt and VMart had a personal problem. They aren't "resting".

159 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:53 pm

ok have fun folks. I'm off.

160 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:54 pm

[155] I agree. If we switched Swisher and Hairston, the only real complaint I'd have is this Bruney Fetish.

161 BrianLevy2020   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:55 pm

[152] I don't understand why Hinske wasn't the guy in that situation. He's a lefty with pop who could easily take over LF for Hairston (or Damon could and Cervelli could plop into the two-hole.

162 seamus   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:55 pm

[157] already stated earlier that you rest until the lead is no longer >5 games. If you can't crank it up then and win the handful of games you need to win, you aren't going to win in the playoffs anyhow. ok off for real.

163 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:55 pm

[158] What does that have to do with it? The BP odds are based on their participation.

164 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:55 pm

Hughes is in now and Hairston is out!!! Are you kidding me? Girardi has officially passed incompetence.

165 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:56 pm

So we switch Hairston out now.

166 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:56 pm

Wow, all of those runs the Angels just scored were unearned.

167 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:58 pm

Who and/or what is Kevin Jepsen?

168 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:58 pm

[155] That's a huge beef though.

169 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:59 pm

I'm glad Girardi saved Hughes until the deficit reached two runs.

170 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:59 pm

Why did they remove Hairston? Is he hurt?

If you're going to pull him, why not pinch-hit for him?

And why pull him, when he's your last catcher?

171 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:59 pm

[163] I am not really interested in the BP odds...just in the Yankees trying make every reasonable attempt to win this game. Girardi has done several things in this game (and many recent games) that can't be justified.

172 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 9:59 pm

Hughes needs to throw the curve more.

173 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:00 pm

[169] WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT BRUNEY CAN DO

174 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:00 pm

Way to waste him, Joe.

175 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:00 pm

[171] What were the BP odds for the Mets the last two years?

176 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:01 pm

[170] And why not PH for him? And why use your SB threat off the bench by putting him in the lineup? That move is idiotic on so many levels.

177 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:01 pm

[173] Stevie Wonder knows what Bruney can do. Just sayin'.

178 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:01 pm

This just in.. the sky is also nearly falling on the Angels, Tigers, Cardinals, and Dodgers. Lots of 6.5 to 4 game leads as well as 6 and 5 back in the division all disappearing tonight. I know.I know. "Why should I care about any other team beside the Yankees?" : D

179 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:02 pm

How does that alter the unassailable fact that the Yankees would be better off if they drafted well?

Because you're putting too much stock in the draft. Especially considering that the Yankees, who have used a combination of drafting, trades, and free agency to put together a run where they were one of the top teams in the league since 1994

So was Clemens. Salary dumps like Clemens are rarer under subsequent CBAs. That’s my point.

Really? Abreu & Lidle were dumped on the Yanks a couple of years ago. The Jays dumped Rios on the White Sox this year. Kazmir was dumped on the Angels this year. I would say that teams are unloading players at the same rate, and if they aren't, the difference is negligible.

Drafting well helps ensure success. It’s not really that complicated.

Name these well run teams that have drafted so well that they sustained a playoff run like the Yanks, or even remained competitive for that period. Off the top of my head, I can only come up with the Braves?

180 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:02 pm

[178] All I care about is that Girardi gives the team the best chance to win. I haven't seen that lately.

181 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:02 pm

[176] We had a double steal the other day. We weren't actually going to try to steal a base late in the late innings of a game for the rest of the year anyway. We still have Pena to pinch run and stand there if the situation calls for it

182 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:03 pm

I still can't believe in two big spots, Girardi rolled the dice with Bruney and Hairston. Mind boggling.

183 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:03 pm

[171] Okay. I thought you were interested in the BP odds because of [137] (the chain goes:
137 - 150 - 158 -163 - 171 - this here comment.)

184 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:04 pm

[177] Of course he does. But WE HAVE TO SEE WHAT BRUNEY CAN DO!

185 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:05 pm

[178] The Angels are winning, actually. (The Red Sox decided not to give their best effort for some reason.)

186 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:06 pm

[183] BP odds are fun, but their relevance pales in comparison to an assessment of the specifics. The next week's schedule is much more important to me than an over generalization.

Huge hit by Matsui!

187 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:06 pm

FORE!!!!! Holy Golf Shot.

188 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:06 pm

Love Godzilla.

Mr OK Jazz, that's your cue!

189 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:07 pm

Funny enough, as negative as I've been tonight, I had a really good feeling all AB there.

190 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:07 pm

yeah matsui

hi team - clearly the yanks just needed me to come home, put the game on, and join the game thread!

191 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:07 pm

YAAAYYYYY!!!!!

192 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:07 pm

[186] No, you are completely wrong about that. Your subjective assessment of the specifics is interesting, but it's kids' stuff compared to BP odds.
Baseball Prospectus knows next week's schedule, by the way.

193 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:07 pm

[190] ;)

194 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:07 pm

[185] You keep joking, but do you really think Hairston batting second and Bruney at all is putting the best team forward?

195 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:08 pm

[190] Thank god you're back.

196 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:08 pm

[179]

Because you’re putting too much stock in the draft. Especially considering that the Yankees, who have used a combination of drafting, trades, and free agency to put together a run where they were one of the top teams in the league since 1994

No, I'm not. I'm merely arguing that drafting well confers a benefit. You still haven't rebutted that.

Really? Abreu & Lidle were dumped on the Yanks a couple of years ago. The Jays dumped Rios on the White Sox this year. Kazmir was dumped on the Angels this year. I would say that teams are unloading players at the same rate, and if they aren’t, the difference is negligible

All but Kazmir aren't top notch starting pitchers, and Kazmir is fragile.

We got Cone and Clemens as salary dumps. Nothing you mentioned compares.

The original issue was Mussina was a bad signing. I think that's dumb. So I'm not sure what Abreu and Lidle add to the conversation.

Name these well run teams that have drafted so well that they sustained a playoff run like the Yanks, or even remained competitive for that period. Off the top of my head, I can only come up with the Braves

Wait. Because other teams haven't drafted well it negates the need to draft well?

That's awfully circular.

MAT!

197 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:08 pm

[185] Apparently, you can't see the difference between the two situations, so it's probably a worthless debate. I am in the camp that says you don't ease up with three weeks left. If you, like Girardi, think simply making the playoffs is the goal, then I wont try to convince you otherwise.

198 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:09 pm

[185] Did you catch Girardi whispering motivationally (too much FJM today) into Matsui's ear before his ab? : )

199 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:09 pm

[194] I think it hardly matters at all. The team is definitely better with Swisher second, but it's better by a tiny amount, and we're going to win the Division.

200 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:10 pm

[199] And Bruney?

Show/Hide Comments 201-300
201 51cq24   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:11 pm

looking through today's thread makes me so grateful for never doing so a year ago

202 jeaner   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:11 pm

[190]
You GO girl!

I really do hate depending on home runs, though. I LOVED the steal against the Angels. And thought that was Girardi at his best.

203 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:11 pm

[192] But it doesn't know how long Joba will go, if Andy will start and how unlucky Mitre will be. It also doesn't tell you if the Yankees will have to over extend themselves holding on to the lead. As someone earlier mentioned, I am sure BP couldn't fathom the Mets collapsing two years in a row, but those actually watching the team definitely got a sense of what was coming. You can have your BP odds, but I prefer to deal with the here and now.

204 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:12 pm

But will Phil pitch the 9th? (no way) Or will Mo be warming soon?

205 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:12 pm

[202] I thought that was Joe Girardi not being Joe Girardi.

206 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:12 pm

[197] The goal is to win the World Series. There is no other goal.
If you think that's not Girardi's goal, then you're in Fantasyland (as long as we're slinging stupid insults).

207 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:13 pm

[200] What's the difference who he plays? BP says the Yankees will win the division, so it must be so.

208 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:13 pm

I'm listening to Ray Charles sing America the Beautiful. My mood has gotten much better.

209 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:14 pm

[203] mitre is guaranteed to be unlucky - hell in the game he was throwing a perfecto he got drilled in the arm - so i am sure all projection systems have his unluckines factored in :}

210 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:15 pm

[206] If the goal is to win the WS, then winning the division and homefield should be a priority. I think Girardi's goal is to win a championship, but think his approach is awful. Similarly, when he bunts with a Nick Swisher, I am sure he is trying to win the game, but the approach is idiotic.

211 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:16 pm

[206] And, what in [197] was an insult?

212 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:16 pm

calm down melky and get your pitch

213 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:17 pm

In other news, Texas is doing everything they can to get us in the playoffs anyway

214 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:17 pm

But it doesn’t know how long Joba will go, if Andy will start and how unlucky Mitre will be.

But neither do you.
The difference is that BP's projection looks at all the various things that could go wrong or right and plugs them in, then runs ten thousand simulations. Sometimes various players are lucky, sometimes a whole team is unlucky... all that's factored in. Whereas you just give your subjective assessment.

Obviously, you're entitled to do that, but it's not very rational.

You can have your BP odds, but I prefer to deal with the here and now.

Whatever that means.

215 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:18 pm

[211] "Apparently, you can’t see the difference between the two situations"

216 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:19 pm

[214] A subjective assessment isn't rational? Maybe they should just run simlations then instead of doing something irrational like actually play these games.

217 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:19 pm

[210] [206] If the goal is to win the WS, then winning the division and homefield should be a priority

It's helpful, but there are other priorities.

218 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:20 pm

[215] Well, there is a difference between not playing someone due to injury and using Brian Bruney in a close game out of...boredom?

219 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:20 pm

No, I’m not. I’m merely arguing that drafting well confers a benefit. You still haven’t rebutted that.

And I'm asking you to show a team that has this ability to draft well, that has had the success the Yanks have had. Fine, teams need to draft well in order to maintain success. You don't think GM's don't know this? Name these teams that have drafted well.

All but Kazmir aren’t top notch starting pitchers, and Kazmir is fragile.

What difference does it make? They were salary dumps, which according to you don't happen because of the new CBA's

Nothing you mentioned compares.

They compare, because they were salary dumps.

Wait. Because other teams haven’t drafted well it negates the need to draft well?

That’s awfully circular

Well, you said it yourself that "drafting well confers a benefit." I'm sure if it were that easy that teams would be falling all over themselves to have great drafts. So based on the number of teams in MLB, I'm sure you have an example of a team that has drafted well, and has maintained success. You make it sound so easy.

220 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:20 pm

[215] You think that's an insult? You compared the Red Sox losing a game to the argument citing specific examples why Girardi wasn't fielding an optimal team. If you "can't see the difference between those two situations" then the difference in opinion is so fundamental that a debate is worthless.

221 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:21 pm

[216] Huh?
That's like saying, subjective assessments of the weather are just as rational as scientific predictions, because otherwise they could just run simulations instead of having weather.
What does one have to do with the other?
Yes, I think relying on subjective assessments in the face of serious, evidence-based, objective assessments, is not very rational.

222 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:21 pm

So, Hughes for only one. I guess the same holds for Mo. With Cervelli and Gardner coming up, that makes it likely the Yankees will have to rely on Albaledejo even if Mo gets out of this inning.

223 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:21 pm

Why can't Hughes pitch?

I know, he just can't.

224 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:22 pm

[220] Obviously it's an insult. Now you're just being disingenuous.

225 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:23 pm

[217] In your opinion. I have a different one. As long as your position is that winning these games isn't very important than I can agree to disagree. If, however, you think Girardi is going all out in these games, well, then I would strongly object.

226 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:24 pm

I hate seeing Rivera throw to second.

227 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:24 pm

That reminded me of Game 7.

228 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:24 pm

BTW, we'd be winning if we didn't screw around with Bruney

229 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:25 pm

[227] SHUT UP.

Please.

230 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:26 pm

[221] What's the purpose of that analogy? Are you really comparing the "science" behind BP's simulations to meteorology?

231 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:26 pm

[230] Yes.

232 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:27 pm

Jesus, what a pitch was that 0-1.

233 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:27 pm

[228] mk would disagree and point out the fallacy of the pre-determined outcome

234 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:28 pm

[224] Obviously, it wasn't. If you took it as one, I gladly apologize, but it certainly wasn't intended that way. Now, it is kind of insulting to be called disingenuous.

235 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:28 pm

Oh, man, that was a beautiful pitch (ball two -- it was a ball, but it was so unhittable and tempting).

236 BrianLevy2020   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:28 pm

[170] Cervelli is the last catcher and...

[176] Freddy Guzman is also a pinch-runner type.

The 40-man. It's crazy.

237 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:28 pm

[201] Ah, they weren't that bad. I enjoyed them. Understand that last year was an uphill battle, given that they were giving away 3 outs per game.

[208] Tis a beautiful song.

[213] I think they're just about done anyway.

Whew! Let's win this in the 9th!

238 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:28 pm

[229] Sorry!

239 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

Angels wasted a golden opportunity and now Boston is rallying. The Yankees need to win this game.

240 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

[234] It is, you're right. My apologies.

(Never any hard feelings on my side when we argue, by the way, William.)

241 jeaner   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

OK, fire up the cool whip

242 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

Dennis the Menace up with two on and no out in Boston

243 BrianLevy2020   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

[236] Oh, you're right. That is their last catcher. Boy, that brawl was a bad idea.

244 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

[233] SHUT UP!

Please.

245 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

Rangers lose. Playoff magic number is five

246 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:29 pm

[239] Who the hell is Jason Reddick, anyway?

247 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:30 pm

[223] Because it isn't the 8th inning?

248 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:31 pm

[231] Another fundamental disagreement then. One is comparing the actions of humans and the other is trying to predict natural events. There is no relevance between the two, IMO.

249 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:32 pm

[246] he played some when the yanks played boston in the middle of the year - very, very fast - i think that is his only baseball skill

[244] my sincerest apologies. :}

250 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:32 pm

[240] Nor do I...I never intend to include insults in any debate.

251 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:33 pm

yeah gritner on

252 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:33 pm

leadoff single!

253 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:33 pm

Love Brett Gardner.

254 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:34 pm

[219] And I’m asking you to show a team that has this ability to draft well, that has had the success the Yanks have had. Fine, teams need to draft well in order to maintain success. You don’t think GM’s don’t know this? Name these teams that have drafted well.

Over the last ten to fifteen years, Minnesota. Tampa Bay. Atlanta. San Francisco. Oakland.

Lately, Boston, Detroit, and to some extent NY.

You also need to be able to keep your players as they approach arbitration and supplement the draftees with good trades and smart free agent signings.

The Yankees have a huge payroll advantage. It's not like it's a fair regular season competition.

What difference does it make? They were salary dumps, which according to you don’t happen because of the new CBA’s

At [11]] I said:

To answer your new question, being able to get players of Clemens, Wells, and El Duque’s character is part luck and also a function of lack of true revenue sharing in prior CBAs.

I forgot to mention Cone. So my point was about being able to get very good pitchers who could handle NY. Part of the reason they could do that was the salary dumps of high caliber pitchers. It wasn't about any salary dump. Obviously, you'd rather dump Abreu or Lidle than Cone.

They compare, because they were salary dumps.

I have already rebutted this misconception.

Well, you said it yourself that “drafting well confers a benefit.” I’m sure if it were that easy that teams would be falling all over themselves to have great drafts. So based on the number of teams in MLB, I’m sure you have an example of a team that has drafted well, and has maintained success. You make it sound so easy.

Who said it was easy? I said it was important.

I actually said the opposite. That is, Mussina was a great signing because they drafted poorly. Granted, there were multiple reasons for that.

255 51cq24   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:34 pm

[239] i feel more urgency when the angels are winning

256 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:34 pm

[248] Well, humans are part of nature, too.

257 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:34 pm

Can't bunt with the lineup set up the way it is.

258 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:34 pm

Steal. THEN bunt. That's my take.

259 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:35 pm

Correction:

At [116] I said:

260 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:35 pm

[256] But probably a little more complex and unpredictable than a low front.

261 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:36 pm

Gardner has to go...if Jeter hits into a DP it would be unforgivable.

262 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:36 pm

nice jump

263 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:36 pm

WTG, Brett.

264 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:37 pm

Man, the Angels can't beat the Red Sox.

265 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:37 pm

[260] Both unpredictable. Each complex in its own way.
You don't try to predict what a particular batter will do on a particular occasion (Sterling's Law!), and you don't try to predict what a particular water molecule will do either. You go with the trends and make your predictions about the long run.

266 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:37 pm

that was a bit scary for his thumb how he slid into 2nd

267 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:37 pm

[250] Agreed. Haven't seen you do it here nor @ the old site...

Gardner doing what he's supposed to do...

[258] Doubt's that going to happen with 2 strikes. Wouldn't be surprised to see Gardner try to take 3rd.

268 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

[265] (Sterling’s Law!)

Heh.

269 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

FLY BALL

270 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

Productive out. Let's get him in.

271 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

Small ball, baby.

272 randym77   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

I missed Gardner while he was gone.

273 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:38 pm

OK Joe...now is the time to bunt. This situation screams for a suicide bunt.

274 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

Oh Christ, Cervelli is up.

275 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

Runner on 3rd less than 2 out, squeeze?

276 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

[272] We don't do that.

277 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

Even a safety squeeze makes sense here.

278 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

swing away?

279 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

yeah just a bit more in the dirt to throw a wild pitch

280 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:39 pm

Long fly would be very, very cool.

281 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:40 pm

I don't get it...he'll bunt in the worst spots, but not when doing so could win the game?

282 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:40 pm

[277] see [276]

283 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:40 pm

[273] Yep, with you on this one. Go for it.

284 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

Wow...what the hell is Girardi doing?????

285 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

chit... so much for the bunt. Cervelli locked up...

286 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

Done.

287 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

YES!

288 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

yeah way to go frankie brains

289 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

Okay, I feel really goo for Cervelli

290 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

Brains PIe. : O

291 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:41 pm

Never gets old, it just never gets old.

292 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:42 pm

this was nice - i only saw the good part of this game

293 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:42 pm

Way to go Cervelli!

He picks up the manager. Girardi's game management is dumbfounding.

294 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:42 pm

[289] Me too. A big pie full of goo!

295 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:42 pm

Cervelli can hit.

296 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:42 pm

Division Magic number: 11

Playoff Magic number: 4

297 jeaner   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:43 pm

COOL WHIP!

298 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:43 pm

Tie game in Boston...damn it.

299 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:43 pm

Cervelli trying to outrun everbody was priceless.

300 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:43 pm

If only AJ could command his pitches the way he commands his pies.

Show/Hide Comments 301-381
301 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:43 pm

Red Sox tied it up. Little Bugger is up with men on first and second

302 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:44 pm

[292] The bad parts weren't even bad so much as... meh.

303 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:44 pm

So exciting!

I'm so happy for this guy. I'll never call him Cervix again!

304 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:45 pm

Does Kay still think the Castillo game doesn't count as a walk off win?

305 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:50 pm

How awesome for Cervelli. I really like that guy.

306 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:50 pm

Why are the Angels able to beat the Yankees, but not Boston? I know it's not popular, but it has have something to do with pyschology.

307 Rich   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:51 pm

[306] Most things have something to do with psychology.

308 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:52 pm

The Red Sox have a catcher named Dusty Brown?

309 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:53 pm

[307] I agree, but not everyone does.

[308] Can never have to many Dusties.

310 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:53 pm

[306] It's really bizarre, isn't it? Maybe Abreu can reverse it right now.

311 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:55 pm

[310] Did you see that Bobby is second in doubles for the decade?
(Verducci published his "team of the decade" column with leaders in various categories.)

312 The Hawk   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:55 pm

Props to Cervelli, good win.

Michael Kay is driving me nuts.

313 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:55 pm

WOOHOO!

314 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:55 pm

El Come Dulce!

315 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:56 pm

Love Bobby. Remember how much we love Bobby Abreu?

316 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:56 pm

Oh Christ. Brian Fuentes against 3-4-5

317 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:57 pm

I wonder why Papelbon wasn't pitching. Interesting. Not like Tito to get hung up on the "closer only with the lead" nonsense.

318 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:58 pm

[317] Supposedly he had back problems of some kind. Or maybe he didn't "feel it" today.

319 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:59 pm

[318] Ah, thanks. I'm not watching, only following on Gameday.

320 ms october   ~  Sep 16, 2009 10:59 pm

[315] i miss him, no so much in rf - but i definitely miss him at the plate.

[305] yeah - cervelli is very endearing.

321 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:00 pm

I should add that Abreu is also second in BB, to Barry Bonds, of course (and not exactly a close second), and second in times on base. Hell of a decade for Bobby.

322 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:01 pm

Well, they could bring Abreu back next year as an OF/DH if they decide to let Matsui and/or Damon go. Personally, I think they are making a mistake looking at the DH slot as a place to simply rest the regulars and hope they back off of that approach, if that is really how they are leaning.

323 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:01 pm

[317] He has pitched 2 of the last 3, and the Red Sox are usually very cautious with Papelbon.

324 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:02 pm

[322] I agree...if you can put a good bat in the DH slot, you shouldn't worry about the lack of flexibility.

325 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:03 pm

[316] With Bay retired, that 3-4-5 is just Lowell and Ortiz. Doesn't have the same scary feel that Manny and Ortiz and Youkalis used to have.

326 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:03 pm

It's funny, the Angels announcers are talking about this game in the same way the Yankees/we were talking about Monday's game.

327 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:06 pm

Brian Fuentes.

328 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:06 pm

Crap..walk to big Papi to bring up Drew.

329 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:08 pm

Jesus Christ

330 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:08 pm

1st and 2nd on a slow grounder...incredible.

331 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:08 pm

Wow, Dusty Brown is actually batting!

332 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:09 pm

So I spent the entire 9th inning trying to get rid of a tonsil stone...so that was fun.

after all the hand wrining on here tonight, it really would be fitting for the Yankees to end up gaining a game in the standings

333 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:09 pm

Oh, he's not. Damn.

334 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:09 pm

Over the last ten to fifteen years, Minnesota. Tampa Bay. Atlanta. San Francisco. Oakland.

Lately, Boston, Detroit, and to some extent NY.

Of the teams mentioned, only the Red Sox and Braves compare WRT on field success. To boot, they've also been fairly active on the FA market.

So my point was about being able to get very good pitchers who could handle NY

That's the thing. If they have game, they can pitch anywhere. If a pitcher fails in NY, I'm pretty sure that there are other, more concrete reason for them failing. Pitchers fail elsewhere, and it's attributed to those reasons, why should NY be any different?

Part of the reason they could do that was the salary dumps of high caliber pitchers.

Ok, so then you change the names to Colon, Vazquez, Santana, Sabathia, Bedard, etc. Point still stands that high salaried players/pitchers are still moved for relief

I said it was important.

And I understand that. My overall point is that it doesn't happen too often for a number of reasons. Of the teams you listed, only the Yankees, Braves and Red Sox have had sustained success. And for all the Braves' success, they're going on their 4th consecutive year where they'll be on the outside looking in.

These teams may have drafted well, sure, but they were active players in the FA market, and they were also positioned to take advantage of smaller market teams. Why do they get more credit for players that they've drafted as opposed to players that were acquired from outside the organization?

335 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:10 pm

The Red Sox are Michael Myers

336 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:11 pm

My goodness...it feels like the Red Sox are doing to Anaheim exactly what Anaheim does to the Yankees.

337 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:11 pm

Very exciting ninth!

338 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:11 pm

Suzyn asked Girardi the obvious question, and Girardi answers:
If Hinske had pinch hit for Hairston, the Angels would have brought in Downs, and Accardo doesn't have big L/R splits this year.

339 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Nick Green, .236, to pinch hit. Interesting.

340 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:12 pm

[332] Fitting yes..but, on paper, both outcomes should have been foregone conclusions. Of course, that's why they play the games and why you should field an optimal lineup when doing so.

341 cult of basebaal   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:13 pm

[338] Actually, Accardo's been far WORSE against RHB this year. Ridiculous reverse splits.

342 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:13 pm

Nick Green just checked his swing, threw is head back as if he just ended the game, but the ump said no swing. Incredible.

343 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:14 pm

He has pitched 2 of the last 3, and the Red Sox are usually very cautious with Papelbon.

I don't know if Wagner and Bard have been used, but those are two other options if Tito decides to pull Papelbon. As well as Saito and Okajima

344 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:14 pm

[341] I think that's what she said, actually, but I didn't catch it distinctly enough.

345 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:15 pm

[338] That shouldn't have been the question. She should have asked why you bat Hairston 2nd in the first place.

346 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:15 pm

[343] Bard is the one who gave it up to Abreu.
He's a good pitcher. He will be very good, maybe great.

347 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:15 pm

3-2...Fuentes sucks.

348 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm

thanks Fuentes

349 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm

[343] Bard, Saito, and Okajima were used for sure. Bard is the one that gave up the run in the ninth

350 cult of basebaal   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm

[335] Michael Myers, Jason and the Terminator, all rolled into one.

unbeFUCKINGlievable.

351 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm

Brian Fuentes.

352 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm

Wow, that wasn't even close to a ball, according to Gameday.

353 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:17 pm

[352] It looked low to me, just eyeballing it

354 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:17 pm

Incredible...why can't the Angels play like this against the Yankees. The Red Sox just sent up 3 of the worst hitters you can find and still tied the score. Anaheim can't beat them.

355 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:18 pm

[352] The check swing was the joke. Green all but walked back to the dugout. That ws a shameful call.

356 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:18 pm

Of course.

357 cult of basebaal   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:18 pm

Wow, just WOW.

358 51cq24   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:18 pm

i don't understand why anyone here would be rooting for the angels

359 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:19 pm

The Angels had 17 hits and three BB. Wasn't enough.

360 Just Fair   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:19 pm

Fuck the Angels. Fuck Boston.

361 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:19 pm

Told you Fuentes would fuck this up.

362 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:19 pm

there are two things that make me feel kinda-sorta semi-confident about the possibility of an ALCS against Anaheim (hypothetically of course, seeing as how we haven't seen an ALCS since Mark Bellhorn was a everyday major league ballplayer)

- 1 is that it would be a 7 game series, which is a whole different ball of wax from an ALDS where the slightest little mistake means the end of your season.

- 2 is that the Angels bullpen is clearly not what it used to be.

363 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:19 pm

Red Sox win...something tells me the Yankees will need to win next weekend. Boston is charging now and the Yankees really had to scrape by to beat a crummy Jays team. The schedule favors Boston, so the Yankees better flip the switch back on soon or they'll be sorry.

364 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:20 pm

[358] I wasn't really, but I can't root for the Sox.

365 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:20 pm

[358] Because the Angels have a difficult schedule and Boston plays 7 games against the Orioles and KC.

366 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:21 pm

[362] Your 2 is the key. Their pitching in general.
But they sure can hit.

367 Raf   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:22 pm

Alex Gonzalez... Really?

368 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:22 pm

What a joke by that umpire. Just terrible umpiring, that pitch was a perfect strike, not even debatable. And what an effort to get the ball by Juan Rivera. Way to let the ball drop in front of you- hey, you stayed in front of it and didn't give up a double, nice job!

369 RIYank   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:22 pm

[365] On thing about Boston's schedule, though: no days off. They play every day for the rest of the season.

370 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:27 pm

[369] If Dice-K is healthy, that shouldn't be a problem. There really is no reason to think that Boston wont go 7-1 or 6-2 at least over the next 8. Meanwhile, the Yankees are a good bet to go 3-3 or even 2-4. At best, that would leave the division lead at 4.5 games, but if the worst case scenario holds (which isn't far fetched), the Yankees see their lead would shrink to 2 games in the loss column. That's way too close for comfort.

371 jjmerlock   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:27 pm

Listen, the Red Sox are likely to keep winning, but don't forget, that team kind of sucks balls on the road. Against anybody. Away from Fenway, deprived of the advantage of stealing signs and shoving the visiting team into a phone booth-sized dugout, they suck balls.

372 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:30 pm

[371] Baltimore and KC are shutting down pitchers left and right. I don't expect them putting up much of a fight. Hopefulyl Boston stumbles against them like the Yankees did, but I don't expect Francona to treat the games as lightly as Girardi did.

373 jjmerlock   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:31 pm

Btw, I know teams change in September, but the truth is that the home and road winning percentages of teams still are pretty revealing about what a team is going to face. Now, the Yankees are about to face a nasty short stretch (but then again, the Yankees aren't frauds on the road like the Suck Sox are).

Check back later tonight - if you recall, I run remaining opponent winning percentages viewing opposing teams as their home and road versions. I'll tell you the *true* remaining opponent winning percentages.

The team versions the Red Sox face aren't *great*, but, again, the Red Sox are paper tigers when separated from their scummy confines.

374 jjmerlock   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:32 pm

Who exactly has been shut down? I've been busy and, like Girardi, briefly turned my attention to other things (College Football, in my case). Unlike Girardi, I'm not being paid stupid money to follow my Yanks.

375 JeremyM   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:35 pm

It's not the same, but KC has been tough on Detroit. Anything can happen, just relax a wee bit william :)

376 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:36 pm

[373] Boston is 5-1 at Baltimore this season, so I am not sure why their overall road winning percentage would be more relevant in that case. KC is just awful. Against all teams (mostly weak Central foes), they are 30-44. If the Red Sox lose more than 1 game in those two series, I'll be shocked. The Yankees dropped 5 games to Toronto and Baltimore over the past 2 weeks and that could come back to haunt them. Had Girardi not broken things down, I think they would have won 2 or 3 of those games. I hope that's not the difference.

377 Mattpat11   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:37 pm

[375] It is kind of hard to relax when you can't shake that feeling that the Yankees manager thinks everything is sewn up.

378 jjmerlock   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:40 pm

One thing that is true is that Yankees and Red Sox games at Baltimore don't fit the traditional definition of road games. Still, I'm not granting the Red Sox anything.

379 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:40 pm

[374] The Royals have shut down Banister and Meche. The Orioles have shut down Matusz are considering doing the same with Tillman. Those two series should be ugly. The Yankees are going to definitely face some pressure this week and the schedule isn't cooperating.

380 williamnyy23   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:42 pm

[375] Whether I relax or not is irrelevant. The fact that Girardi has relaxed is what's troublesome. It's evidence of the same poor judgment that leaves me scratching my head during games and has been very worried about the role he'll play in the post season. Girardi has been and remains the team's greatest weakness.

381 RagingTartabull   ~  Sep 16, 2009 11:44 pm

is anyone watching this game?? how the hell did Stewart just hit that out??

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"This ain't football. We do this every day."
--Earl Weaver