"A New York Treasure" --Village Voice

Hughes Expectations

The Show Must Go On.

Hughes on the hill.

Derek Jeter SS
Nick Swisher 1B
Robinson Cano 2B
Steve Pearce DH
Russell Martin C
Curtis Granderson CF
Andruw Jones RF
Jayson Nix 3B
Ichiro Suzuki LF

Never mind the Band Aids: Let’s Go Yank-ees!

[Illustration by Tang Yau Hoong]

Categories:  1: Featured  Game Thread  Yankees

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Show/Hide Comments 1-100
1 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 3:43 pm

Steve Pearce DH

Well, I guess the rules dictate that someone has to hist for the pitcher.

2 thelarmis   ~  Aug 28, 2012 3:50 pm

[1] and in the cleanup position, no less!

let's hope he hists a coupla homers tonite! ; )

3 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 4:14 pm

[2] He could make histstory.

4 Bruce Markusen   ~  Aug 28, 2012 4:14 pm

What a dreadful middle of the order. Steve Pearce batting fourth and Russell Martin batting fifth.

And why not just put Pearce at first base, and keep Swisher in right and Jones at DH? The way Girardi has it, Swisher is out of position (1b)and Jones is playing a spot (rf) he has hardly played this year.

5 OldYanksFan   ~  Aug 28, 2012 4:19 pm

[5] HEY NOW!!!!!!!!! JoeJoe is just breaking Stevie in easy!
(but of course, you are correct).

6 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 5:23 pm

[3] C'mon Prof., you know it's "herstory".

[4] Awful..I'm shocked the Yankees are still in first with all the injuries.

7 Greg G   ~  Aug 28, 2012 5:24 pm

That is a crazy lineup? Just crazy enough to work. (Sorry! I had to write that.)

I think Girardi's daughter made out the lineup card, and Girardi doesn't want to hurt her feelings.

8 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:03 pm

[7] She has her own little mini-binder.

9 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:05 pm

[4] Just more of Girardi's cutesy managing this season.

10 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:11 pm

An 83-pitch walk to start things off. Awesome.

11 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:11 pm

O for fuck's sake Phil. Just fucking pitch.

12 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:12 pm

The Red Sox are playing in LA.
Isn't that ironic?

13 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:12 pm

Thank you, Blue Jays.

14 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Hughes giveth, Martin taketh away.

15 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:13 pm

Thanks, Coltrane.

16 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:14 pm

[12] Like rain on your wedding day.

17 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:15 pm

Damn, somebody put the ball in play. I was hoping we could get through Phil's entire start without that happening.

18 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:18 pm

So, the game isn't a total loss.

19 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Returning the favor, I see.

20 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Swinging through ball four on the hit-and-run.

21 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:21 pm

Plays are great. I love plays.

22 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:23 pm

Don't hate the play, hate the player?

23 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:28 pm


24 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:30 pm

And better still.

25 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:32 pm

I've been alerted that something called "Steve Pearce" is now on the Yankees and hitting cleanup.

26 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:33 pm

Jeez, he looks like Russell.

27 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:34 pm


28 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:34 pm

[25] You can joke, but don't underestimate the impact of having Russel Martin provide him protection.

29 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:35 pm

[28] Russell sold him some condoms before the game.

30 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:36 pm

Man, it's gonna be hard to keep my attention focused on this game for innings when batters 1-3 don't hit.

31 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:37 pm

Any of you guys right handed?

32 Chyll Will   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:40 pm

[31] Depends; do I need to talk to Russell first?

33 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:40 pm

I suspect I'm going to learn to hate this "Steve Pearce"

34 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:43 pm

[33] Nah, I can't bring myself to hate him. My ire will be aimed at the organization that put itself in a position to have him as part of a starting platoon with McGehee, and the manager who bats him cleanup.

35 Chyll Will   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:45 pm

[33] "And a Steve will Pearce your heart."

36 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:45 pm

[32] He can provide you with protection.
[33] You're a fast learner, I have great faith in you!

37 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:46 pm

Uh oh.
It's extremely important that the homers be solos tonight, because we aren't going to be able to catch up if they're two- and three-run jobs.

38 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:49 pm

Not pretty or efficient, but effective...so far.

39 Chyll Will   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:50 pm

[36] I'll be in good hands...

40 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:55 pm

Nice! Now, no plays please.

41 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:58 pm


42 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:58 pm


Now, no plays.

43 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:59 pm

Al Leiter with a blasphemous statement, suggesting that lefties can hit lefties.

44 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 6:59 pm

[43] I was about to post almost exactly the same thing!

45 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:00 pm

The Jays announcers just commented on how Jeter has been using the same bat for like 60 games. I thought it looked cracked last night. Crazy.

46 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:03 pm

Nix and Nick.

47 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:04 pm

2 out rbi will getcha to Heaven.

48 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:05 pm

Swish! I'd hate to think where the Yankees would be without him.

49 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:05 pm


50 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:06 pm

Sumbitch. That was a nice play by the second baseman.

51 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:06 pm

So next inning will be another Waste Land Inning.

52 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:08 pm

I'll put 11 pitches in the pool before Hughes gives up the lead.

53 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:11 pm

A Pontoon sighting. Ha.

54 Alex Belth   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:11 pm

I wish tonight's game didn't give me that nervous, unsettling feeling, but there it is: I've got it. Fucking O's beating up on Chris Sale, too.

55 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:12 pm

[53} What?

56 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:13 pm

[35] Breaker! Break another Pearce of my heart now baby. You know you got it if it makes you feel good. Thanks Russell.

57 Alex Belth   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:14 pm

What a great job by Phil to get Yorvit.

Ponson looks like he just ate a platter of Dom Deluise with a side order of Bartolo Colon.

58 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:14 pm

Devon White.

59 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:14 pm

What do you know, Phil kept the lead.

60 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:14 pm

[55] The Yes camera showed our old friend Syndey Ponson sitting in the fron row.

61 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:15 pm

How can anyone be worried about a team that's been outscored by almost 50 runs this year? I just can't get upset.

The Rays, different.

62 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:15 pm

[57] Sign him up. We need an innings eater.

63 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:16 pm

Devon White hitting the foul pole in Yankee Stadium is my first vivid memory at a game.

64 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Who am I to doubt Steve Pearce?

65 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:17 pm

[61] Upset no, worried, yes. The Yanks play the O's 7 times to come.

66 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:17 pm

Oh, man. Ricky Romero, dude.

But I'll take it.

67 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:18 pm

[65] But I'm thanking the baseball gods for that! I think we'll win five of those.

68 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:18 pm

[60] Oh God.

I'd find that funny if Cashman didn't have that weird fetish with him.

69 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:19 pm

Steve Pearce is a five-tool player.

70 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:19 pm

[63] Now you have made me feel soooo old.

Pearce is a world beater! All we are saying is give Pearce a chance.

71 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:21 pm

Gets the job done.

72 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:21 pm

We're reduced to smallball.
But, better than not scoring, right?

[70] Damn. I'm going to come up with one before the game is over.

73 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:21 pm

First a 2 out rbi. Then a sac fly. I am guessing a safety squeeze next.

74 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:22 pm

rbj, what is your trackpad problem? Do you have a MacBook Air?

75 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:27 pm

Yes, Al, the 'v' is silent in Spanish. Exactly.

76 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Phil Hughes just can't help himself.

77 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:30 pm

Yep, the consummate Phil Hughes AB. Two strikes, eleven fouls, and a homer.

78 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:30 pm

Who dosed me? Nix at third, Jones in right, Swish at first, some guy named Pearce at DH? What happened to my Yankees?

79 Alex Belth   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:30 pm

Dumb pitch, Phil.

80 Chyll Will   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:32 pm

[78] The heart of the order has been Pearced...

81 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:33 pm

Nix, again.

82 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:33 pm

[74] It's an HP Touchpad, which HP decided to orphan 3 weeks after I bought it.
Sigh, Phil being Phil.

Anyway past two nights touch screen was not responding after a few minutes. I think it was too hot and the tablet over heated. Seems to be behaving tonight.

83 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:36 pm

Maybe Nix should bat cleanup.

84 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:36 pm

[82] Oh, I thought it was the touch pad on an Air. I had a problem with mine, and it was only when the machine was hot. Apparently it's common.

85 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:37 pm

Productive strike-out, though.

86 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:42 pm

Dammit, he really wanted to walk Rob, too.

87 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:43 pm

[84] Ah, so I shouldn't worry that mine is slowly dying.

88 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:45 pm

If the Yanks make the playoffs (If!) then I'm terrified of Hughes starting..how many taters will he give up to Trout/Trumbo/Pujols or Beltre/Hamilton/Cruz? Maybe he can come out of the pen as a fireballer...

I refuse to acknowledge the Steve Pearce Experiment.

89 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:50 pm

[88] Well, he's pitched two games against the Angels and one against the Rangers, and given up a total of five homers against them. So I don't know if that's the big problem.

The walks are going to kill him, I'm afraid.

90 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:51 pm

Sorry, no, just four HR in those three games.

91 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Phil living dangerously.

92 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

I love me some Robbie.

93 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Lucky > Good

94 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Dang, I never thought Jones would get there.

Thank Mo, Robbie picks up the team.

95 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Oh, that was fucking beautiful.

Thank you, Rob. Thank you, Rasmus you ugly mutt.

96 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:52 pm

Thank you Toronto.

97 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:56 pm

[95] Rasmus IS an ugly mutt. How can a baseball player be so pale?

98 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:56 pm

The middle of this lineup is fearsome.

99 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:56 pm

Thanks, guys, for getting the Heart of the Order over with quickly.

100 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:57 pm

[97] You know the Red Sox are coveting him. The uglier, the better -- and their ugly quota dropped dramatically when they made that trade with the White Sox.

Show/Hide Comments 101-178
101 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm

Threw only six pitches, including a strikeout. Awesome.

102 OldYanksFan   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm

With Teix out and Grandy being absolutely hopeless, can we even play .500 ball?

103 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm

Boone had better be warming up...

104 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:59 pm

Oh, Hip-Hip-Hooray to our host Alex-san for his new article at Sports On Earth!
Big Thumbs down for that site's design though, quite an ugly presentation. Hope they change it.

105 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 7:59 pm

[102] How many games do you figure they're each worth, in a ten game stretch?

106 OldYanksFan   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:00 pm

Man... how are the O's 13 games over .500 with a -45 run differencial? It's not really SSS anymore.

107 Mattpat11   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:00 pm

Colby Rasmus looks like an after photo on a police website earning you about crystal meth

108 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:02 pm

[107] Or just a mug shot.

109 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:04 pm

On the local Yes cable broadcast, there's a Lotto commercial that frequently runs. It's of impersonators of the US founding fathers and Lincoln (like the pictures on currency) partying at the beach. There is something wrong with Jefferson hitting on a women of color.

110 OldYanksFan   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:06 pm

Out of 14 AL teams, Baltimore is 10th in RS and 8th in ERA. How are they doing it?

111 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:06 pm


Well, extremely good results for Phil. It wasn't a beautifully pitched game, but I hope he's this good for September.

112 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:06 pm

[106] Statistical fluke? Out of all the seasons played, by all the teams, it's bound to happen at some point.

Either that or they play moral baseball.

113 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:07 pm

[109} should be woman. sorry

114 OldYanksFan   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:09 pm

[109] I believe it's CW that Jefferson fathered a chid with a slave. Nice to know some of these guys were liberals.

115 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:11 pm

Even Kay sez, Jones has been useless the last 6 weeks.

116 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:13 pm

[114] He did. And he was not liberal, he felt entitled. John Adams would never do that.

117 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:14 pm

[114] The DNA tests can only prove that it was a Jefferson male, equally likely to be his nephew. Impossible to determine at this point.

Almost another gift from Toronto.

118 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:15 pm

Thanks for getting the bottom of the order over with quickly, fellas.

119 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:16 pm

Ichiro has had a couple of memorable games since the trade, but he's really a shell of his former self.

120 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:16 pm

[117] Still, if the Orioles were as morally shaky as the Jeffersons, they'd be 57-70.

121 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:18 pm

[120] Yeah, and George Jefferson is a direct descendant.

122 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:18 pm

[119] Seems like, but would you believe that his stint on the Yankees has only been 44 points below his lifetime OPS?

123 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:19 pm

[121] Hm, but Thomas was a unitarian and George was fictitious.

124 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:20 pm


Fatherhood agrees with him.

125 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:20 pm

[120] Wouldn't that still be an improvement over the past few years?

126 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:21 pm

[123] George was fictitious??? C'mon, I know a lot of self-made guys from the urban area who were allowed to buy into Upper East Side condos in the 70s!

127 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:21 pm

[123] Ask a Lutheran, and they'll say that Unitarians are fictitious too.

128 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:22 pm

[122] I would for two reasons:

1) His lifetime OPS is not very impressive for a corner OF, which is among the reasons I have always considered him overrated.

2) He only has about 120 PA, and so the few HRs he's popped have bumped his OPS up a little. We're still talking small sample sizes with his Yankees stint. Take his season as a whole and the stats match how dead he looks to my eyes.

129 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:23 pm

Well, the only three real hitters in the lineup (not named Nix) bat this inning. Maybe they find an insurance run.

130 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:23 pm

[126] Ahem. We call them "co-ops". Do you also say "Avenue of the Americas"?

[127] I can't say I quite get that, but I like it.

131 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:25 pm

[128] Umm, but you didn't watch him play in Seattle, did you? So SSS or not, we're talking about his actual performance in the games you actually watched! So his actual performance was actually pretty good.

I have now used up my 'actual' quota for September.

132 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:27 pm

Is it ok to discuss eighteenth century issues of race, religion, and politics on the Banter?

133 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:29 pm

[128] OPS is only measure of a player's production. Ichiro is a unique player. Master singles hitter with speed and great D. I still fail to see why he is over-rated. What OF's over the same 10-year period would you want ahead of him?

[130] I'm from Brooklyn. I don't know from co-ops, condos, etc.
Over here they call them "mansions". Google a Tokyo "mansion" apartment and you'll either break nito hysterics of flee in horror.

134 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:29 pm

[132] Too soon?

135 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:30 pm

[132] I would LOVE to join that chat but am guessing "no".
We should get a side thread/page available for such topics.

136 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Damn, thought that was going to get down.

[131] The actual performance I have seen has not been pretty good, unless you consider below average hitting (96 OPS+)---and from a corner OF---pretty good!

I'm not sure the relevance of of whether I had seen him play in Seattle this season. I said he's looked like shit for the Yankees, except for a couple of games---that's my subjective observation. His season's statistical of shittiness matches what my eyes tell me, even though, admittedly, his Yankees numbers are less shitty than his overall numbers.

137 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:30 pm

High wire save tonight. Gulp.

138 mhoward120   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:31 pm

(132) Are you REALLY watching the Republican Convention?

139 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:31 pm

Mansions, very cool. That's Jacobean: "In my Father's house are many mansions." (John 14:2)

140 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:33 pm

{138} Mr. Mo Howard; that was funny!

141 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:33 pm

[136] I was reacting to "shell of his former self". So "pretty good" was only relative to his former self, not relative to a good corner outfielder.

142 mhoward120   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:34 pm

(138) More of a sad commentary on my part, but what the hey

143 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:34 pm

[132] As long as it's B. C.

144 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:35 pm

How important is this appearance for Soriano?

145 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:36 pm

[144] Appearances are not important. It's character that counts. (That's why the Orioles have won 70 games.)

146 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:37 pm

[144] See all the nonsense in the tabloids about him yesterday? I heard about it, didn't bother to read.

[138] Following on Twitter. It's hysterical.

147 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Well-deserved untuck.

148 Ara Just Fair   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Good. The angry untuck slays me.

149 rbj   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:37 pm

Now we can untuck !
Good night all.

150 mhoward120   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:38 pm

(138) I'm also expecting the pitchforks to come out soon

151 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:39 pm

Violent untuck. I wonder what Soriano is like in the off season, before sitting down on the couch with a beer after he's been out?

152 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:39 pm

[133] Yes, he's a unique player. A slap-hitting RF who plays good defence---whose value would be much higher if he played CF. He is easily overrated, in my mind. Most consider him a no doubt HoFer and I don't view him as such. A 113 OPS+ corner OF is just not a HoFer in my book. That alone makes him "overrated". Note, I don't say he's "bad', simply that he's overrated.

What OFs would I take over him, looking at 2001-2010 or 2011? That's a tough question because you force the time period to overlap his career, sort of like the way people used to say Jack Morris had the most wins in the 1980s. So what? I'm not sure who's better in the precise period of 2001-2011. But I will say that Paul O'Neill was better. Albert Bell was better. Reggie Smith was better. I think that NIck Swisher is comparable, overall. None of those guys is seriously discussed for the HoF.

153 kenboyer made me cry   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:41 pm

[150] I appreciate your comments, but sometimes subtlety works better.

154 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:43 pm

The Rays have six hits, no runs. Rangers, one hit, one run.

155 mhoward120   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:44 pm

(150) Thought I was being subtle; I left out the burning-cross allusions

156 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:44 pm

[152] I like O'neil but no way he was a better all-around baseball player than Ichiro. Albert Belle..sure! His stats were incredible, hugely underrated.

But I think getting caught up in the stats misses a lot of what Ichiro was..master with the bat and glove, great speed. Rarely if ever missed games, superb table-setter. Close to 3000 hits even after starting late in MLB. Add in the international "groundbreaker" aspect..that's a HOFer.

157 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:45 pm

[152] An outfielder who outperformed Ichiro during that decade: Manny Ramirez. And it's not close. It's not even close to being almost sort of close.

158 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:48 pm

[157] Manny is one of the greatest hitters of all time. Of course, you'd rather have his produciton. Doesn't mean Ichiro is not a HOFer.

159 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:49 pm

Torii Hunter, Vlad, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, Carlos Beltran, and (sorry) Barry Bonds. Andruw Jones, Carlos Lee.

That's all I can think of.

160 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:50 pm

I'm not really offering an opinion about Hall of Fame status by the way; just responding to the "which outfielders would you rather have over that decade?" question.

161 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:53 pm

[159] Hmm..Bonds, Beltran, Jones and Vlad, yes. Ichiro before Hunter, Abreu, Damon or Lee. Those first four all HOF worthy, methinks!

162 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 8:56 pm

{161] The list that I came up with of OFs I'd take over Ichiro (and this includes only corner OFs whose careers roughly overlapped with Ichiro's):

Vlad Guererro
Manny Ramirez
Magglio Ordonez
Garry Sheffield
Bobby Abreu
Larry Walker
Adam Dunn
Barry Bonds

163 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:00 pm

[162] Interesting list. Though Larry Walker was often injrued and had the Coors effect. And Adam Dunn! Blechh...really don't like watching players like him and Jason Giambi. I remember watching Giambino trying to throw to 2B..painful.

I see you guys points but your list is basically saying, "the guys with power are better players". As an overall player, Ichiro was amazing and MUCH more qualified for the HOF than Dunn, Abreu, Walker of Magglio. Obviously, he's behind Bonds, Manny, Vlad and maybe Sheff.

164 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:03 pm

[156] How do the stats miss all of that. for example "superb table-setter" shows up clearly in OBP. But Ichiro's career OBP (.365) is really not *that* impressive. It's good, but not overwhelming. Heck, O'Neil's career OBP was .363.

Yes, Ichiro plays great defense and can steal bases. But again, those things can be measured, more or less. How much value does Ichiro's glove and speed actually add? How many more wins did he produce?

I guess we could look at WAR, if I had the time to compile a list of corner OFs' career WAR to see where Ichiro ends up.

What it seems to me you are really trying to argue is that Ichiro possesses intangible and/or aesthetic qualities that cannot be statistically verified, and these contradict any argument that he is overrated. Well, I simply can't argue with that. In fact, the argument (and methodology) is irrefutable.

165 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:05 pm

[161] I dunno, Torii didn't get as many hits, but he had more power, and he was a CF, and he was the best OF in baseball. Abreu was a much, much better hitter, esp. if I can add 1998 and 1999 (he was hugely underrated), although he wasn't much of a fielder.

I'd forgotten about Shef -- I think of him as somewhat earlier, but he was good late too. And he had some really incredible, 1.000 OPS years, too.

I will give Ichiro some extra credit for playing in Safeco. That's an OPS-stealing stadium.

166 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:07 pm

Also, Bobby Abreu's lifetime OBP: .396. Holy shit. Lifetime! I'm impressed when someone does that for a year.

Now that's a table-setter.

167 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:08 pm

[163] I'm not saying guys with power are necessarily better. What I am saying is that power is important to a corner OF. At the very least, power is also part of the overall ability of a player. Your special pleading to ask me to consider Ichiro's master glovework or the uniqueness of his ability to hit singles, but not allow me to invoke power as part of the overall package.

Regarding Dunn: I agree, I hate watching him play. But I bet I win a lot more games with Dunn in RF than Ichiro.

Regarding Abreu: what is your knock on him? His poor defense, when he played for the YAnkees? Otherwise, he had speed (398 career steals), a great eye (= better table-setter than Ichiro), much more power. Overall he was, I think, clearly a better player than Ichiro.

168 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:11 pm

Let's see, Ichiro accumulated about 54 WAR in the 10 years. That really is very impressive. More than Abreu, more than Torii, more than Mags.

So now I'm thinking his defense plus the Safeco factor might add up to more than I was giving Ichiro credit for.

169 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:12 pm

[165] OPS+ is adjusted for context, including park effects, no? 113 OPS+ is just not that impressive for a corner OF.

170 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:13 pm

[165][166][167] I think you guys are exhibiting some slight bias' against "singles hitters". IF Tony Gwynn is in the Hall (as he should be), why not Ichiro?

Abreu's career stats are great. Maybe I am swayed by watchign him play "D" while with the Yankees.

Adam Dunn..i really can't stand watching three-true-outcomes guys. Frankly, I don't think that indicated a lot of baseball "skill". Just brute strength and a good eye. No running, no throwing, no slap-hitting..

I think it's an aesthetics thing with me. I love watching 5-tool guys and thus, possibly/probbaly overrate them. Guys that walk a lot...yawn...

171 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:13 pm

[168] OK, that's a fair argument. Maybe I'll have to look more closely at comparable WAR.

172 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:16 pm

Rod Carew 1977: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/carewro01.shtml

THAT's what I'm talking about! :)

173 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:17 pm

[170] So Tony Gwinn was a comparalel singles hitter? How about:




So, Gwinn hit for a considerably higher BA, got on base much more, hit with far greater power, and had a significantly higher OPS+ (adjusted for context). So why is Gwinn in my HoF and Ichiro not? Because Gwinn was a whole lot better!

174 RIYank   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:17 pm

[169] Yes, it is park-adjusted but not position-adjusted.
Ichiro did pick up huge piles of runs saved, by UZR, so that's where a lot of the WAR comes from.

175 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:18 pm

[172] An awesome season. Note the .570 SLG.

[173] Meanwhile, Tony Gwynn became Tony Gwinn. Grrrr.

176 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:22 pm

[173] Safeco! Also, again, comparing Ichiro to some pretty top-tier hitters. He's NOT better than Gwynn or MannyBManny. But I still think if you look at thw whole package, he gets in.

[175] Incredible year from Carew. Worthy MVP

177 Mr OK Jazz Tokyo   ~  Aug 28, 2012 9:22 pm

[175] I'm sensing you are not very tolerant of spelling errors by your students? :)

178 monkeypants   ~  Aug 28, 2012 10:01 pm

[177] They have longer deadlines, at least for papers. On the other hand, I never hassle students for misspellings on timed tests.

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