Threw only six pitches, including a strikeout. Awesome.

With Teix out and Grandy being absolutely hopeless, can we even play .500 ball?

Boone had better be warming up...

Oh, Hip-Hip-Hooray to our host Alex-san for his new article at Sports On Earth!
Big Thumbs down for that site's design though, quite an ugly presentation. Hope they change it.

[102] How many games do you figure they're each worth, in a ten game stretch?

Man... how are the O's 13 games over .500 with a -45 run differencial? It's not really SSS anymore.

Colby Rasmus looks like an after photo on a police website earning you about crystal meth

[107] Or just a mug shot.

On the local Yes cable broadcast, there's a Lotto commercial that frequently runs. It's of impersonators of the US founding fathers and Lincoln (like the pictures on currency) partying at the beach. There is something wrong with Jefferson hitting on a women of color.

Out of 14 AL teams, Baltimore is 10th in RS and 8th in ERA. How are they doing it?

Huuuuuuuuuuughes!

Well, extremely good results for Phil. It wasn't a beautifully pitched game, but I hope he's this good for September.

[106] Statistical fluke? Out of all the seasons played, by all the teams, it's bound to happen at some point.

Either that or they play moral baseball.

[109} should be woman. sorry

[109] I believe it's CW that Jefferson fathered a chid with a slave. Nice to know some of these guys were liberals.

Even Kay sez, Jones has been useless the last 6 weeks.

[114] He did. And he was not liberal, he felt entitled. John Adams would never do that.

[114] The DNA tests can only prove that it was a Jefferson male, equally likely to be his nephew. Impossible to determine at this point.

Almost another gift from Toronto.

Thanks for getting the bottom of the order over with quickly, fellas.

Ichiro has had a couple of memorable games since the trade, but he's really a shell of his former self.

[117] Still, if the Orioles were as morally shaky as the Jeffersons, they'd be 57-70.

[120] Yeah, and George Jefferson is a direct descendant.

[119] Seems like, but would you believe that his stint on the Yankees has only been 44 points below his lifetime OPS?

[121] Hm, but Thomas was a unitarian and George was fictitious.

Hammered.

Fatherhood agrees with him.

[120] Wouldn't that still be an improvement over the past few years?

[123] George was fictitious??? C'mon, I know a lot of self-made guys from the urban area who were allowed to buy into Upper East Side condos in the 70s!

[123] Ask a Lutheran, and they'll say that Unitarians are fictitious too.

[122] I would for two reasons:

1) His lifetime OPS is not very impressive for a corner OF, which is among the reasons I have always considered him overrated.

2) He only has about 120 PA, and so the few HRs he's popped have bumped his OPS up a little. We're still talking small sample sizes with his Yankees stint. Take his season as a whole and the stats match how dead he looks to my eyes.

Well, the only three real hitters in the lineup (not named Nix) bat this inning. Maybe they find an insurance run.

[126] Ahem. We call them "co-ops". Do you also say "Avenue of the Americas"?

[127] I can't say I quite get that, but I like it.

[128] Umm, but you didn't watch him play in Seattle, did you? So SSS or not, we're talking about his actual performance in the games you actually watched! So his actual performance was actually pretty good.

I have now used up my 'actual' quota for September.

Is it ok to discuss eighteenth century issues of race, religion, and politics on the Banter?

[128] OPS is only measure of a player's production. Ichiro is a unique player. Master singles hitter with speed and great D. I still fail to see why he is over-rated. What OF's over the same 10-year period would you want ahead of him?

[130] I'm from Brooklyn. I don't know from co-ops, condos, etc.
Over here they call them "mansions". Google a Tokyo "mansion" apartment and you'll either break nito hysterics of flee in horror.

[132] Too soon?

[132] I would LOVE to join that chat but am guessing "no".
We should get a side thread/page available for such topics.

Damn, thought that was going to get down.

[131] The actual performance I have seen has not been pretty good, unless you consider below average hitting (96 OPS+)---and from a corner OF---pretty good!

I'm not sure the relevance of of whether I had seen him play in Seattle this season. I said he's looked like shit for the Yankees, except for a couple of games---that's my subjective observation. His season's statistical of shittiness matches what my eyes tell me, even though, admittedly, his Yankees numbers are less shitty than his overall numbers.

High wire save tonight. Gulp.

(132) Are you REALLY watching the Republican Convention?

Mansions, very cool. That's Jacobean: "In my Father's house are many mansions." (John 14:2)

{138} Mr. Mo Howard; that was funny!

[136] I was reacting to "shell of his former self". So "pretty good" was only relative to his former self, not relative to a good corner outfielder.

(138) More of a sad commentary on my part, but what the hey

[132] As long as it's B. C.

How important is this appearance for Soriano?

[144] Appearances are not important. It's character that counts. (That's why the Orioles have won 70 games.)

[144] See all the nonsense in the tabloids about him yesterday? I heard about it, didn't bother to read.

[138] Following on Twitter. It's hysterical.

Well-deserved untuck.

Good. The angry untuck slays me.

Now we can untuck !
Good night all.

(138) I'm also expecting the pitchforks to come out soon

Violent untuck. I wonder what Soriano is like in the off season, before sitting down on the couch with a beer after he's been out?

[133] Yes, he's a unique player. A slap-hitting RF who plays good defence---whose value would be much higher if he played CF. He is easily overrated, in my mind. Most consider him a no doubt HoFer and I don't view him as such. A 113 OPS+ corner OF is just not a HoFer in my book. That alone makes him "overrated". Note, I don't say he's "bad', simply that he's overrated.

What OFs would I take over him, looking at 2001-2010 or 2011? That's a tough question because you force the time period to overlap his career, sort of like the way people used to say Jack Morris had the most wins in the 1980s. So what? I'm not sure who's better in the precise period of 2001-2011. But I will say that Paul O'Neill was better. Albert Bell was better. Reggie Smith was better. I think that NIck Swisher is comparable, overall. None of those guys is seriously discussed for the HoF.

[150] I appreciate your comments, but sometimes subtlety works better.

The Rays have six hits, no runs. Rangers, one hit, one run.

(150) Thought I was being subtle; I left out the burning-cross allusions

[152] I like O'neil but no way he was a better all-around baseball player than Ichiro. Albert Belle..sure! His stats were incredible, hugely underrated.

But I think getting caught up in the stats misses a lot of what Ichiro was..master with the bat and glove, great speed. Rarely if ever missed games, superb table-setter. Close to 3000 hits even after starting late in MLB. Add in the international "groundbreaker" aspect..that's a HOFer.

[152] An outfielder who outperformed Ichiro during that decade: Manny Ramirez. And it's not close. It's not even close to being almost sort of close.

[157] Manny is one of the greatest hitters of all time. Of course, you'd rather have his produciton. Doesn't mean Ichiro is not a HOFer.

Torii Hunter, Vlad, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Damon, Carlos Beltran, and (sorry) Barry Bonds. Andruw Jones, Carlos Lee.

That's all I can think of.

I'm not really offering an opinion about Hall of Fame status by the way; just responding to the "which outfielders would you rather have over that decade?" question.

[159] Hmm..Bonds, Beltran, Jones and Vlad, yes. Ichiro before Hunter, Abreu, Damon or Lee. Those first four all HOF worthy, methinks!

{161] The list that I came up with of OFs I'd take over Ichiro (and this includes only corner OFs whose careers roughly overlapped with Ichiro's):

Vlad Guererro
Manny Ramirez
Magglio Ordonez
Garry Sheffield
Bobby Abreu
Larry Walker
Adam Dunn
Barry Bonds

[162] Interesting list. Though Larry Walker was often injrued and had the Coors effect. And Adam Dunn! Blechh...really don't like watching players like him and Jason Giambi. I remember watching Giambino trying to throw to 2B..painful.

I see you guys points but your list is basically saying, "the guys with power are better players". As an overall player, Ichiro was amazing and MUCH more qualified for the HOF than Dunn, Abreu, Walker of Magglio. Obviously, he's behind Bonds, Manny, Vlad and maybe Sheff.

[156] How do the stats miss all of that. for example "superb table-setter" shows up clearly in OBP. But Ichiro's career OBP (.365) is really not *that* impressive. It's good, but not overwhelming. Heck, O'Neil's career OBP was .363.

Yes, Ichiro plays great defense and can steal bases. But again, those things can be measured, more or less. How much value does Ichiro's glove and speed actually add? How many more wins did he produce?

I guess we could look at WAR, if I had the time to compile a list of corner OFs' career WAR to see where Ichiro ends up.

What it seems to me you are really trying to argue is that Ichiro possesses intangible and/or aesthetic qualities that cannot be statistically verified, and these contradict any argument that he is overrated. Well, I simply can't argue with that. In fact, the argument (and methodology) is irrefutable.

[161] I dunno, Torii didn't get as many hits, but he had more power, and he was a CF, and he was the best OF in baseball. Abreu was a much, much better hitter, esp. if I can add 1998 and 1999 (he was hugely underrated), although he wasn't much of a fielder.

I'd forgotten about Shef -- I think of him as somewhat earlier, but he was good late too. And he had some really incredible, 1.000 OPS years, too.

I will give Ichiro some extra credit for playing in Safeco. That's an OPS-stealing stadium.

Also, Bobby Abreu's lifetime OBP: .396. Holy shit. Lifetime! I'm impressed when someone does that for a year.

Now that's a table-setter.

[163] I'm not saying guys with power are necessarily better. What I am saying is that power is important to a corner OF. At the very least, power is also part of the overall ability of a player. Your special pleading to ask me to consider Ichiro's master glovework or the uniqueness of his ability to hit singles, but not allow me to invoke power as part of the overall package.

Regarding Dunn: I agree, I hate watching him play. But I bet I win a lot more games with Dunn in RF than Ichiro.

Regarding Abreu: what is your knock on him? His poor defense, when he played for the YAnkees? Otherwise, he had speed (398 career steals), a great eye (= better table-setter than Ichiro), much more power. Overall he was, I think, clearly a better player than Ichiro.

Let's see, Ichiro accumulated about 54 WAR in the 10 years. That really is very impressive. More than Abreu, more than Torii, more than Mags.

So now I'm thinking his defense plus the Safeco factor might add up to more than I was giving Ichiro credit for.

[165] OPS+ is adjusted for context, including park effects, no? 113 OPS+ is just not that impressive for a corner OF.

[165][166][167] I think you guys are exhibiting some slight bias' against "singles hitters". IF Tony Gwynn is in the Hall (as he should be), why not Ichiro?

Abreu's career stats are great. Maybe I am swayed by watchign him play "D" while with the Yankees.

Adam Dunn..i really can't stand watching three-true-outcomes guys. Frankly, I don't think that indicated a lot of baseball "skill". Just brute strength and a good eye. No running, no throwing, no slap-hitting..

I think it's an aesthetics thing with me. I love watching 5-tool guys and thus, possibly/probbaly overrate them. Guys that walk a lot...yawn...

[168] OK, that's a fair argument. Maybe I'll have to look more closely at comparable WAR.

Rod Carew 1977: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/carewro01.shtml

THAT's what I'm talking about! :)

[170] So Tony Gwinn was a comparalel singles hitter? How about:

.338/.388/.459/.847/132

v.

.322/.365/.418/.783/113

So, Gwinn hit for a considerably higher BA, got on base much more, hit with far greater power, and had a significantly higher OPS+ (adjusted for context). So why is Gwinn in my HoF and Ichiro not? Because Gwinn was a whole lot better!

[169] Yes, it is park-adjusted but not position-adjusted.
Ichiro did pick up huge piles of runs saved, by UZR, so that's where a lot of the WAR comes from.

[172] An awesome season. Note the .570 SLG.

[173] Meanwhile, Tony Gwynn became Tony Gwinn. Grrrr.

[173] Safeco! Also, again, comparing Ichiro to some pretty top-tier hitters. He's NOT better than Gwynn or MannyBManny. But I still think if you look at thw whole package, he gets in.

[175] Incredible year from Carew. Worthy MVP

[175] I'm sensing you are not very tolerant of spelling errors by your students? :)

[177] They have longer deadlines, at least for papers. On the other hand, I never hassle students for misspellings on timed tests.