"A New York Treasure" --Village Voice

Just what does $161 million equate to?

As an admitted (but not recovering) math geek, I decided to take a look at just what the Yankees would be getting for their investment in C.C. Sabathia.

Based on his seasonal averages to date, and assuming Sabathia stays for all seven seasons, here’s the breakdown (hmm …. perhaps I could have chosen a different word there … oh well).

Annual average salary: $23,000,000
Per win (based on 15 per year): $1,533,333.33
Per game (based on 34 per year): $676,470.59
Per inning pitched (based on 222 per year):$103,603.60
Per strikeout (based on 186 per year): $123,655.91
Per batter faced (based on 27.15 per game): $24,918.74
Per pitch thrown (based on 99.4 per game): $6,808.40

Share: Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share via email %PRINT_TEXT


1 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 10, 2008 7:59 pm

Still worth it. I maintain that Sabathia saves any chance the Yankees have in 2009. Without him we would have been done.

What is not worth it, of course, is 90 million over five years for AJ Burnett


2 Alex Belth   ~  Dec 10, 2008 8:39 pm

Yikes. That's scary as Burnett is just not my cup of tea. And for five years, he's REALLY not my bag.

Now, if the Yanks are giving out deals like this, I would hope this indicates that they aren't stopping here and are eager to add some hitters to this team as well.

3 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 10, 2008 8:46 pm

[2] It's funny, but a lot of smart people really like Burnett. Still, I am in the same boat of secretly hoping he signs with the Braves. On the other hand, I do keep having momentary lapses in which I imagine the good Burnett in a rotation with Wang, Sabathia and Joba, and that makes me think it would be worth the risk. If the rumored deals about Lowe and Perez and Sheets are true, then maybe Burnett is worth that much? Economy or not, the market for pitching is still bullish, as John Sterling was telling Carlos Silva just the other day.

4 Cliff Corcoran   ~  Dec 10, 2008 8:51 pm

I wouldn't want Burnett on a one-year deal. I wouldn't want Burnett for free. I wouldn't want Burnett in a puddle in a bottle on a poodle eating noodles. I do not want Burnett with ham. I do not want him, Sam I Am.

5 Alex Belth   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:10 pm

Cliff, would you have at least have a CATCH with the man?


Yeah, I'm so not into the dude. But I have lapsed into a similar daydream as william--actually, I've done it even without the addition of Burnett--and that's the notion of a Yankee pitching staff with STUFF!

Now, what about the offense?

Do you guys think they'll make a serious run at Manny?

6 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:14 pm

E@#$ reports that the friggen Washington Nationals! have offered Tex 8 yrs/$160M... if he signs, I'll assume it's because there's an opt-out after three months...

7 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:19 pm

[5] I'll bet it would be a Catch-22... (yeah, I seddit...>;)

8 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:21 pm

[5] Yes...I think things are setting up for them to go after Manny, which I would obviously love to see. Give me Manny and one more pitcher (plus Andy) and I am ready for Opening Day.

9 tommyl   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:41 pm

AJ Burnett=Jaret Wright

10 tommyl   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:43 pm

Cliff, I hate him too, but I'm curious as to why you wouldn't want him on a 1-year deal (note I agree, I'm just wondering what your reasoning is)?

11 Just Fair   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:47 pm

How much per World Series Ring? At least 80.5 million. Or maybe 53. 6 million to get a tad greedy Not zero for cripes sakes. I am pretty pyched to have C.C. He's going to make Boomer look like Edwar if that makes any sense. My right hand info. bar still cuts into my comment box. I just typed into Luis Guzman's stadium memory.

12 RIYank   ~  Dec 10, 2008 9:59 pm

If Manny really won't sign for fewer than six years, then I'm pretty sure we'll never see him in pinstripes. Rumor is, though, that there aren't any nibbles. For three years, I'd pay him, no doubt. And I'd look forward to hearing the BOOOOs at Fenway punctuated by the THWACK of maple on leather.

13 Just Fair   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:06 pm

[4] Burnett bugs me b/c he looks like such a grinchy s.o.b. I hope he winds up in Atlanta.

14 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:07 pm

[9] There are lots of arguments against Burnett, but that one is simply not fair. Jaret Wright was never close to the pitcher that Burnett is.

[12] That loug clang of balls bouncing off the green monster would be nice too (assuming they don't go over or through).

15 ny2ca2dc   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:09 pm

Oye; I'm not even one to say not to Burnett in any circumstance, but five frigin years close to 90 frigin million frigin dollars is absotivly frigin posolutly frigin batshit insane. From the ESPN article, "Although the total dollar figure isn't known, Burnett's agent, Darek Braunecker, is believed to be seeking a deal approaching Carlos Zambrano's five-year, $91.5 million contract with the Chicago Cubs." Mustn't this be where we get off the damn train. Back that money up to Tex's house, if it's burning a hole in your pocket, but please. AJ ain't as good when healthy, nor nearly as durable as Big-Z.

These guys must be kidding us. And I was fretting about Lowe for 66/4... Come on Andy, accept that offer, take away the AJ impetus!!!

16 JL25and3   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:28 pm

If Teixeira signs with the Nationals for 8/160, it will be an incredibly foolish move for both parties.

I've been thinking about CC's opt-out clause all day, and I've decided that there actually is an upside for the Yankees. The worst-case scenario is that CC sucks for seven years, but I think the chances of that are slim. Much more likely is that CC's contribution will be front-loaded - that is, he'll be terrific for the next few years, but declining in the last few years. If he breaks down because of weight or whatever, it's more likely to happen at 33 than at 29; and in any case, he's much more likely to be worth the money at the beginning than at the end.

And that's exactly what the opt-out protects the Yankees against.

17 51cq24   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:36 pm

are the padres rebuilding? what would it take to get gonzalez?

18 Alex Belth   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:41 pm

If the Nats are offering 8/160 then surely the Angels, Red Sox or Yankees will trump that offer...

And don't call me Shirley.

19 Cliff Corcoran   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:49 pm

JL, I'm assuming you didn't read my last post ("Can You Dig It, CC?"). I say a very similar thing.

Tommy, I might have been exaggerating for effect, but he did walk 86 men last year, post a roughly league average ERA, and was below league average when you take away his starts against the Yankees. Beyond that, I have an intense irrational dislike of him dating back to his Marlins days. I can't stand looking at him, much less being in a position in which I'm forced to root for him. The Yankees could get the same production in 2009 out of Pettitte, whom I'm already conditioned to root for. I just hate the idea of a Burnett deal in every way possible.

Good thought on Adrian Gonzalez. He'd be a monster outside of Petco. The Yankees should definitely be targeting him via trade. With CC on board, I'd give up Kennedy and ex-Padre X.Nady to get him, just to throw a couple of names out there.

20 JL25and3   ~  Dec 10, 2008 10:58 pm

[19] You're right. And apparently you think a lot faster than I do.

Gonzalez is signed through his arb years, 3 more years (including an option) for a total of $13.25M. I can't imagine why the Padres would want to trade him. If they did, Kennedy and Nady should be the throw-ins, not the main attraction.

21 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:02 pm

[15] seriously..it makes NO sense at all to come near Burnett with that deal..why not sign Adam Dunn to play 1B/DH,they guy is guranteed to hit 40-45 taters with the short-porch...

The Nationals offer to Tex..is that a joke?? Do they just have the pigeon guy outside Union Station running the team there now??

22 Cliff Corcoran   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:15 pm

Tex is a Baltimore native, so the Nats are trying to capitalize on some sort of home-field advantage. A lineup with Tex, Zimmerman, Milledge, Dukes, and Willingham would have some serious potential, particularly as three of those guys haven't turned 25 yet. It's not the worst idea ever . . . for the Nats. Tex would be a fool to sign there, however.

23 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:22 pm

[21] Nah, I think this is the shoe-shine guy's fault...

24 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:23 pm

See what you mean about the potential of that lineup, but that is a BAD team..Tex alone at that salary really seems excessive..

I wish just once a player would come out and admit it though, "yeah, i signed here for the money, who cares where you play when you get $XXX?"

25 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:25 pm

[22] Yep. If he supposedly had issues with A-Rod, then Dukes and Milledge would represent an upgrade?

26 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:27 pm

[23] hey Chyll, got any funky 70s fusion in your collection? pulled out HeadHunters for first time in ages last night, had to dance round the shoe-box apartment...Gary Bartz on deck for this evening...

27 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:30 pm

[25]I know about Dukes, but what exactly did Milledge do to get a bad rep?? me thinks we got some double standards going on here...ahem..

28 thelarmis   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:37 pm

[26] Thrust! i still need to get the double live Flood cd. i think it was a Jap import way back when. it's probably standard issue now and remastered, to boot...not sure.

i've got Eric Dolphy The Illinois Concert on right now! it's a Blue Note cd, live in '63 w/ Herbie on piano...

welcome CC!
say NO to AJ!
c'mon back Andrew Eugene and your giant honker!
yo Ca$h: SIGN TEX!!! ...or, at least DUNN!!!

something tells me we'll be getting a CF'er somehow - ankiel, cameron...

29 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:45 pm

[28] you said it Elvin! That Dolphy is awesome..damn, why are they always taken away so early?? and for Dolphy there were no drugs, booze or pills..what a shame...

really gets interesting with Pettite now..really hope they sign him instead of AJ, obviously..

30 thelarmis   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:52 pm

christ, the Muts just got JJ Putz. guess he doesn't mind being a setup man. it was a 3-team trade w/ the M's & Tribe. lotsa player movement there. 7 inning games at the new Shea.

[29] yeah man, what a horrible loss about Dolphy so early. he's soooo unique and distinctive. more intention than anyone!

31 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 10, 2008 11:55 pm

[30] really?? Putz and K-Rod in the 8th and 9th..barring injury that's going to be quite a bullpen..in fact Putz at his peak is better than K-Rod!

Dolphy really Was unique..immediately identifiable, just like when you hear Monk on piano..no other sound like it in jazz (and in Monk's case probably the universe!)

32 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:00 am

[26] But of course... keep going on the Herbie Hancock vein (Mr. Hands!) and Donald Byrd. Then if you want to include certain funk bands like Brass Construction, Con-Funk-Shun and Graham Central Station, I wouldn't object. And if you have those, you have WAR. Going back to Jazz fusion, I have a few Miles and Stanley Clarke standards, Weather Report and maybe Roy Ayers Ubiquity fits? But Herbie, Donald and Miles are my favorites in this class...

As for Milledge, from what I understand he wore out his welcome with the Mets front office and veterans by continually defying "player protocol" (a rookie must know his place, after all!) and adopting a laissez-faire approach to preparing for ballgames. The fans liked him for being like the wide receiver who jumps into the stands after a touchdown, but when his production tumbled off a cliff, the Mets had a firm reason for moving him. So yeah, he wasn't unstable like Dukes, but he wasn't as special as he thought himself to be either, and thus the bad rep.

33 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:04 am

if this is all correct, Muts got Putz, Jeremy Reed & Sean Green. they gave up Heilman, Endy Chavez, Joe Smith and Mike Carp, between the M's & Indians.

i love that about Dolphy. even with all those great soloists on Andrew Hill's excellent Point of Departure record. as soon as Dolphy's plays his opening line, you can't help but stop everything you're doing, turn around and stare at the stereo in complete befuddlement. he is simply mesmerizing! do you have the 9cd box set on Prestige?

34 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:07 am

[28] Boy, you and Jazz get around. All I got is the popular well-known stuff my brother gave me. I need to listen to WBGO at night much-much more...

Did I say I'm glad CC made his decision? And not just because he's choosing the Yanks, but he did it in a very well-informed and impressive manner, despite my own grumpiness. Well done, brotha!

35 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:10 am

[32] i'm a BIG Donald Byrd fan! but, really, only his hard bop stuff from the 50's & 60's. i'm sorta scared off of his later, electric, funky stuff, esp. w/ vocals. but perhaps one day i'll check into some of that material; at least, the stuff on Blue Note. he's such an outstanding musician, i'm sure it's all great - just a matter if i'd like it. i'm more in a straight-ahead faze right now...

36 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:13 am

[33] Hmm, Endy and Joe Smith is some blood-letting there. Smart getting rid of Heilman for Putz, but who are the other two they get? Well, if they manage to hold a lead to the eighth, they're set. Now, would you use Putz as the setup and close with K-Rod, or the other way around?

37 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:16 am

[32] yep, I can see being a Donald Byrd-man...Miles though transcends the fusion label, so much more mysterious, deep and inter-planetary (to reference his majesty Sun Ra)..ever hear "Lonely Fire" from the Bitches Brew box-set?

[33] Great trade for the Amazins..

agree about Dolphy completely, though nothing tops John Coltrane's entry on "Teo" from Miles' "Someday My Prince Will Come" album..just breathtaknig..

38 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:17 am

[34] once you dive in it becomes all-consuming..went through a 7 year spell when bought nothing but jazz..coincidentally i have very little savings now..

39 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:20 am

jazz tokyo - i JUST listened to the Someday My Prince Will Come remastered cd Sunday night! i'm afraid, i'm once again in the all jazz consuming vortex - economy (and my savings account) be damned! : o

40 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:21 am

one would think bavasi never left the seattle GM post! ; )

41 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:22 am

[31] Whoooah! I am far from Krod's biggest fan, but I know JJ Putz, JJ Putz is his a friend of someone, and JJ Putz is no Krod!!

Keep in mind, Putz is already 31 years old! After two very good seasons, he had a mediocre and injury plagued season in 2008. I am not so sure Putz will be much of an upgrade over Heilman, who is younger and has no injury history.

42 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:25 am

[39] nice! just stunning performances by Trane on that record..my uncle saw him live at the V.Vanguard back in 1961, the gigs that were later released in the 5-cd set. He for people in the crowd it was like sitting at the feet of Jesus...

[40] I don't know the Mets prospects at all..should Seattle have held out for more??

43 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:29 am

[35] Some of that later stuff made it's way into some classic hip-hop tracks (Stetsasonic did a remix of "Talkin' All That Jazz" with a sample from "Falling Like Dominoes", which is what the FA market is now about to do) and Tribe Called Quest used a sample from... I think it was "Wind Parade", both on his album "Places & Spaces" which I found years ago at a garage sale for a dollar. More recently if you will, his Wiki page says he teamed up with Guru from Gang Starr for the track "Loungin'" on Guru's "Jazzmatazz" album (which I admit I haven't heard completely :( ...

44 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:30 am

my man Hank Mobley is on a lot of the ...Prince album...

ah, i could be off on the trade. carp, is probably a power potential guy. M's will probably look at heilman for the rotation. M's also ended up getting Franklin Guitierrez from the Tribe, who got Joe Smith from the Muts...

45 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:32 am

[43] thanks for the 411, Chyll !!! right now, i'm awaiting one Byrd cd in the mail and there are 3 more on my list to pick up. at this rate, i'll be buying them very very soon! beyond that, i'll have to check and see what other titles of his - if any - i'll be seeking out...

46 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:34 am

With all the Dolphy talk and me mentioning Byrd, I also noticed on Byrd's wiki that he performed with Dolphy two weeks before Dolphy died. But you guys probably knew that already...

[42] I'd heard good things about carp, IIRC. Apparently the Muts can sure pick em, they just can't keep em.

47 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:36 am

[41] saw Putz often the last few seasons (many Ms games on here of course) and he can really deal..his velocity was back toward the end of the season, no reason he can't be a great 8th-inning guy and fill-in closer?

[43] yes, i think "Dominoes" was sampled a LOT in the 80s..Jazzmatazz was nice, shame about current hip-hop though...most of it unlistenable to me..oh god, did i turn into Don Zimmer without realizing it??

48 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:36 am

[42] I actually think Seattle did very well here. They get Franklin Gutierrez from Cleveland and Heilman from the Mets along with quantity that could turn out one useful major leaguer in exchange for a 31 year old reliever coming off an injury plaqued year. Cleveland also did ok in picking up Joe Smith, a young reliever who has been solid in his two major league seasons.

I actually hate this deal for the Mets. They are buying Putz 2006 and 2007 seasons, but that may be a thing of the past.

49 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:38 am

Apparently $161 million gets you good banter about jazz! >;) Gotta go to bed, though. Stupid weather up here is conniving to get me sick again, and wouldn't you know... g'nite!

50 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:42 am

[47] He was throwing well at the end of the year, but he will be 32 before the season starts and is coming off of elbow trouble. That's a major red flag to me.

Also, keep in mind that the Yankees had another 30-something right hander who could really deal. His name was Kyle Farnsworth.

51 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:46 am

[49] rest up Chyll, the movie gods wait for no-one (just ask Fassbinder..)

[50] but surely Putz an upgrade over last year, regardless?? but hey, this ain't no Mets blog, jazz and Yankee talk only this time of day!

The opt-out clause for CC intrigues me..would he really ever walk away from 4yrs guranteed at that salary?? would anyone really offer more at that point to a 31-yr old CC??

52 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:54 am

i know it's all speculation, but according to ken rosenthal - and mlbtraderumors - the shit sox made progress w/ their talks on Tex tonight. i won't be surprised if they get him... : /

53 tommyl   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:55 am

So the rumor going around now is that the Yankees have offered Burnett 91/5. Dear lord I hope that is some false rumor being spread by his agent or something. That offer is so completely stupid.

54 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:55 am

[47] No, you're right. Most of the hip-hop nowadays is totally unlistenable in general, and I'm really upset about it; but not enough to do a Rev. Calvin Butts impression with my handy steamroller. Even Common has to play toward the lowest "common" denominator in his latest album, which says to me that he really needs to take more acting classes and develop his craft in other forums.

I blame NWA first and foremost, because they more than anyone else not only brought the "hateful" side of hip-hop to the mainstream, and also stoked the corporate lunacy that dictates what rappers are supposed to say and do; and most damning, they eliminated accountability among rappers by claiming to be "street reporters".

I regret laughing at all this way back when, because I never believed so many people would take it so seriously. Now I live among the results, and it's extremely painful to deal with. But I guess that's really what it boils down to: do you have the wherewithal to really listen, or do you try to reflect and imitate it, taking in absolutely nothing? zzzzz...

55 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 12:57 am

M's probably did pretty well in the trade. they got an additional 3 minor league mutts. i don't know anything about them, but possible strength in number. pete abe has an easy to read breakdown:

Mets get: RHP J.J. Putz, OF Jeremy Reed, RHP Sean Green

Mariners get: RHP Aaron Heilman, OF Endy Chavez, 1B Mike Carp, LHP Jason Vargas, OF Ezequiel Carrera, RHP Maikel Cleto, OF Frankin Gutierrez.

Indians get: RHP Joe Smith, INF Luis Valbuena.

56 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:01 am

[54] interesting..could comment lots about that but maybe send to your blog?? at least we still got De La from those days (and no matter what anyone says, "De La Soul Is Dead" is better than "3 Feet.."!)

[55] wonder if Ibanez goes next? it's going to be painful watching all those Seattle games next year...

57 Chyll Will   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:03 am

[51] ...zzzzz Man, you've got to let me go to sleep! >;) Ali: Fear Eats The Soul is one of those great films you can only watch once. But don't worry, I'll stay away from combos and just suffer through with a Motrin or two zzzzz...

58 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:06 am

[56] yeah man - mariners, padres & pirates are all such lousy ballclubs. would suck to be a fan...

np = blue mitchell Boss Horn (BN, of course!) w/ chick corea on piano!

59 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:11 am

[57] slumber! yep, saw "Ali..." love all his stuff, especially "Chinese Roulette" and "Fox & His Friends"..just don't have directors like that anymore..

[58] Pirates especially sad..and to think they were once the Family with Pops Stargell and the Cobra!

been listening to a lot of solo Keith Jarrett recently..you need the time and the focus but his improvised solo concerts are unreal..genius musician, and the Trio was one of the best live gigs i ever saw (with Jack De on drums of course!)

60 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:18 am

dave parker was a badass ballplayer!

keith jarrett is amazing, but his scat style drives me mad - he literally sounds like a dying bat when he "sings"! sooo cool you got to see the trio live! gary peacock is great. i just read some cool old stories about him, but can't remember where...

i, like chyll, am starting to feel rundown. hoping for a solid night of sleep!!!

61 Mr. OK Jazz TOKYO   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:21 am

[60] get some rest too buddy, need you and Chyll to keep me company in the wee hours (your side)!

Jarrett..unrivalled genius of the piano, i got used to the moaning&groaning now..check out this wholly improvsed footage from the 70s, once he finds the groove there's no stoppping him! http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=k2FWfAkB8CU

62 thelarmis   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:26 am

thanks, man! i might need to retire 'early' tonight. hope i'll sleep and feel more like a human in the coming days!

63 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:44 am


You put it that way, just, wow.

A hundred k per *INNING!*


God damn.

64 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:46 am

[4] [5] ha ha ha haha ha !!

It's nice to see you guys!

And no, Sam I Am, I do not want that Manny Ram.

65 weeping for brunnhilde   ~  Dec 11, 2008 1:49 am

[12] Six years???

Isn't he like 36?

66 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 11, 2008 6:26 am

People keep saying that Burnett is a good pitcher, so he's worth the risk.

If the Yankees are going to disregard players' injury histories (and at this point, I think we have to say that's now the organizational philosophy. ) I want better than a pitcher the quality of AJ Burnett. I want Randy Johnson in the early 00s. I want Roger Clemens in the late 80s and early 90s. I want Greg Maddux in the mid 90s.

If we're going to ignore the fact that a pitcher never pitches and sign him anyway, I want unquestionably, the best pitcher in the American League. The idea that our reward for this MASSIVE risk is AJ and his 111 OPS+ and 1.3 WHIP enrages me.

I was so happy with this team this morning too.

67 OldYanksFan   ~  Dec 11, 2008 6:42 am

Yankees, Brewers talking Mike Cameron trade
by Dan Graziano
The Yankees and the Milwaukee Brewers met Wednesday to discuss a trade that would send center fielder Mike Cameron to the Bronx, possibly for Melky Cabrera [and a pitching prospect], according to a person familiar with the talks.

68 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 11, 2008 6:56 am

Well, if our CF platoon isn't going to really get on base and will strikeout 150 times anyway, we might as well get someone that hits 25 HR.

69 OldYanksFan   ~  Dec 11, 2008 7:03 am

[51] Mostly, the opt-out is in case he and his family HATE NY. It ain't never gonna happen, although I wish it would. CC (and his salary) for 3 years would be just fine.

While CC and his contract could be potential disaster, he is worth the risk. But this talk of AJ and Lowe sickens me. I mean, is this 'Deja Vu all over again' for this organization? For what the Yanks will pay for another 2 FA pitchers, they could have Andy and Tex, a relatively safe bet, and the upgrade to O and D we so badly need.

I think with this economy, there will be (relative to today's prices) some steals over the next 3 years. This is the wrong time to overpay on players.

CC, Wang, Pettitte, Joba/Hughes/anybody is more then enough if we had a team that could hit and catch the ball. Throw Tex in our lineup, and we have a really nice, balanced team.

70 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 11, 2008 7:07 am

[69] Its not deja vu. Its the organizational philosophy. Injury histories are irrelevant.

I will say though, the 2010 Free agent class is atrocious. If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, which apparently the Yankees do, now is the time to spend it.

71 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 7:37 am

[66] I think you meant ERA+ of 111. Otherwise, AJ could also help fill some of the holes on offense. I can understand your misgivings about Burnett, but like it or not, $16mn seems to be the going rate for pitchers who are 10% above average. Also, Burnett's peripherals are even better than his ERA, which leads you to believe there is real upside potential, even at his advanced age of 31. What's more, if there is credence to the notion that Burnett would thrive on the big stage, that is another plus.

I know Burnett's injury track record is a concern, but he is not a Carl Pavano. He has made at least 20 starts since 2004, so it's not like he goes into hibernation like the American Idle. I have to admit that I started the offseason wanting to stay far away from Burnett, but the idea keeps growing me on.

72 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 7:45 am

[69] [70] I don't think the Yankees are shying away from Tex because of money, but instead because of position. Personally, I think they have someone like Holliday on their minds for 2010. Considering their desperate need in the OF when Matsui, Damon and Matsui all depart, that would seem to be a perfect fit. Unless you think the Yankees can afford Holliday, Tex and C.C. in two seasons, a line has to be drawn.

Also, 1B shouldn't be that hard to fill. Having Swisher man the position isn't too bad if he reverts to 2006-7 form.

Would I like Tex? Yes. Would I hate it if he goes to Boston? Yes. Ultimately, however, I don't think this is a Beltran moment.

73 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 11, 2008 8:06 am

[71] ERA+'s what I meant. It wouldn't be one of my posts without a glaring typo.

20 starts a year doesn't impress me at all. That's how we'll wind up with Sidney Ponson over and over and over again, trying to fill the 10-15 starts that AJ loses.

As for the potential, I think at this point AJ is who he is. Strikeouts or not, I just don't see him turning into a dominant pitcher in his mid 30s.

Is there any reason to think AJ will thrive on the big stage? it seems like everyone we get has that rep, regardless of whether or not they do.

The 16 mil per isn't what annoys me as much as the idea that in five years, we could have shelled out 80 million dollars for less than 100 starts.

Its not just AJ. I don't think pitchers that are ten percent above average are worth five years, frankly.

But more important than anything, I HATE the idea that this team is going to bet even one season on as completely unreliable as AJ Burnett. If we miss the playoffs in any of these years because we needed Sidney Ponson to pick up 13 starts, the contract is a bust.

74 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 8:21 am

[73] To be fair, it's his early-30s, and he wouldn't be the first pitcher to step up in class around that age. Chris Carpenter comes tom ind as one who had his best seasons in the early-30s, although he did burn out shortly thereafter.

I guess the best reason to think AJ likes the big stage are his #s against the Yankees and Boston, which are great. Afterall, if Burnett can pitch well against Boston 5 times, does that not enhance his value (kind of like RJ in 2005).

Finally, if the Yankees sign Pettitte and Burnett, that would make Hughes #6 and Aceves #7. In other words, there will be no Ponson in 2008, so perhaps that is being considered.

75 OldYanksFan   ~  Dec 11, 2008 8:29 am

[72] William... I do understand the 'positional' issue, but when was the last time we had a Yankee that was both an offensive and defensive stud? Bernie is hs prime? (although I don't think Bernie was ever one of the best defensive CFers... never got good jumps). Maybe it was a guy named Mattingly. He played that easy 1B position, yet he was pretty valuable.

I saw (on TV) MANY Mattingly games. He saved runs ALL the time with his defense. Turning seemingly impossible 3-6-3 DPs. Charging bunts. Throwing guys out at the plate. Robbing doubles down the line. Going in the hole. So, yeah, while a 'Mattingly' CFer or SS would be more valuable, a guy who excels at both O and D is very valuable, no matter where he plays.

And again, I'm comparing spending money on Andy/Tex as opposed to AJ/Lowe or Sheets. Which deal is the better money spent? Which deal makes our team better?

And while we keep saying 1B is easy to fill, who have we had since Donnie? Tex is much better then Tino, and overall, better then post 2001 Giambi. Frankly, when I look at our offensive lineup, I ask, how good are these guys as a whole at producing runs? When I like at our defensive lineup, I ask, how good are these guys as a whole at saving runs? When looking at the team as a whole, positions do not really come into it.

I ask this honestly....
We know a 3rd baseman saves LDs down the line. More then a 1Bman?
We know a 3rd baseman saves singles in the hole. More then a 1Bman?
We know a 3rd baseman (but not ARod) field popups. More then a 1Bman?
We know a 3rd baseman fields bunts. Ever see Mattingly charge a bunt and fire out a guy at 3rd base?
And taking throws from 3 other infields potentially saves or allows a lot of baserunners. Cutoff throws?
So why 1Bmen are low on the defensive spectrum, this is a relative comparison. A great fielding 1Bman might not be as valuable as a great fielding 3Bman or SS.... but he is STILL very valuable.

And lastly, how many quality arms, with MLB potential do we have on the farm?
How many .900 OPS guys with great gloves do we have on the farm?

Why are we commiting BIG bucks, when we already have 7 years of CC, to 5 year contracts for pitchers? In 2011, 2012, and 2013, are AJ/Lowe going to be that much better then one of our kids, that we would pay $16m more for them????????

76 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 11, 2008 8:54 am

[74] Even Carpenter was younger than Burnett is right now when he found himself or turned the corner or whatever it is he did for three years. AJ will be 32 in a month, which is when Carpenter blew his arm out again.

I don't think Burnett will stay healthy enough to face Boston five times a year. He saw them once in 2007.

Basically, I'm not convinced that Ian Kennedy can't do what AJ does but more often and for a lot less money and headaches.

I have Sidney Ponson nightmares.

77 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 9:03 am

[75] No one was a bigger Mattingly fan than I was, so I am not denigrating the value of defense at 1B, just stating that it is the easiest position to fill in terms of total value.

Also, Teixeira is not on Mattingly's level with the glove. In fact, according to UZR, before his excellent fielding season in 2008, he was below average from 2005-2007. I think Tex is a good defender, but definitely not elite like Mattingly was.

As for Giambi, don't sell his Yankee career short. Four of his years boasted an OPS+ well above Tex's career level of 134 and were on par with his best seasons. While a definite defensive liability, I don't think the gap is as large as you seem to think.

Everyone keeps talking about all the arms the Yankees have in the minors, but over the past 50 years, how many starting pitchers with an ERA+ of 111 do you think they've developed? I'd have to guess that number is pretty small. People salivate over Josh Beckett, but his career ERA+ is only 116. The reason for that is Beckett has great stuff, which seems to come to the forefront in the post season. I think that's part of the Burnett appeal.

I just don't think this is a Burnett versus Tex debate, but a Holliday versus Tex debate, and I can see why Cashman would prefer to go after pitching now and out the bat off for one more season.

78 williamnyy23   ~  Dec 11, 2008 9:07 am

[76] That's where I think your argument goes astray. An ERA+ of 110 is not an abundant commodity. A team with an ERA+ of 110 would be have a very good staff. Being 10% better than the average MLB pitcher is an accomplishment. IPK has not given us any reason he can reach that level. I am not sure why Burnett's injury risk scares you, but IPK's performance risk does not.

79 Mattpat11   ~  Dec 11, 2008 9:35 am

It all hinges on me not thinking Burnett is going to last the whole year. I'm not totally sold on Aceves yet, so I'm not sure if that rotation spot could even give us 110+

Also, if Kennedy bombs, its easy enough to dump him. If AJ gets hurt, hes an 80 million dollar paper weight

80 OldYanksFan   ~  Dec 11, 2008 11:24 am

[77] I'm not comparing Tex to Donnie or Jason, as much as saying having a stud at that position is still a huge asset.

Yeah, a 110 ERA+ ain't bad, except if it's a proven injury risk and you have $16-$18m/yr tied into it. The Yankees have not produced many above average pitchers, but I wonder if the 'smarts' and effort behind our last 4 years of farm pitcher development is far and away better then in previous generations. It could be Wang, Joba and Phil alone are more then a decade's worth of prior attempts.

Do you think we have any above average kids in the system?
If so, 1 question is: AJ > Kid + Dunn?
Even if the kid is not as good as AJ, what does that $16m/yr do for the team if we have an average kid in AJ's place.

I mean, it's NICE to have 3 or 4 aces on the staff, but is that the best formula? To me, with CC, Wang and Joba, we already have a top 3. Just how much above average do our #4 and #5 guys have to be? Wouldn't those resourced be better allocated to the O and the D?

Is the AJ/Lowe/Sheets PHILOSOPHY that much different then the RJ/Pavano one?

I mean, if we can't count on our farm to produce some better-than-average pitchers, we ae in deep shit.

feed Share on Facebook Share on Twitter Share via email
"This ain't football. We do this every day."
--Earl Weaver