The Yankees threw Sergio Mitre against Roy Halladay last night and the lost 10-4. No real shock there. The Yanks did well to take an early 2-0 lead on Halladay, touch him up for 11 hits, and bounce him after 112 pitches in six innings, his earliest exit in five starts against the Yankees this year, but it was of little use. Mitre gave up two home runs in both the third and fourth innings, including a pair of monster shots to rookie slugger Travis Snider, giving the Jays a 5-2 lead they wouldn’t relinquish.
The real news came came in the eighth inning. With two outs, the bases empty, and the Jays up 8-2, Mark Melacon hit Aaron Hill in the lower back with the first pitch he threw to him. Hill was 0-for-4 prior to that plate appearance and was 0-for-2 against Melcanon entering the game. It seems unlikely that Melancon, who has been wild in the majors, walking 5.4 per 9 innings and hitting three other batters in his first 15 innings, intended to hit Hill. Still, Hill is an important hitter in the Jays lineup, so when Jorge Posada came to bat in the bottom of the inning, Jesse Carlson threw behind him.
Carlson’s pitch went what seemed like ten feet behind Posada, but Jorge was unwilling to shrug it off. Instead he backed out of the batter’s box, took a few steps toward the mound and told Carlson, “Don’t do that again.” The benches cleared to calm Posada down, and Posada ultimately worked a walk and came around to score on a Brett Gardner double (Gardner, by the way, went 2-for-4 with a pair of RBI hits).
Carlson was drifting toward home plate to back it up as Posada crossed the dish and Jorge gave Jesse a solid brush with is left shoulder as he went by. Carlson spun around and fired some invective at Posada, who then returned to home plate and touched off a real benches-clearing brawl.
Posada, Carlson, Jays’ catcher Rod Barajas, home plate umpire Jim Joyce, and in-the-hole hitter Johnny Damon were in the initial scrum and soon joined by Joe Girardi, who failed to pull his 38-year-old catcher out of the fray and instead got sucked into the middle of the pack and emerged with a bit of a shiner on his left eye. As one might have expected, Shelley Duncan tore into the heart of the fracas like Michael Phelps going after olympic gold and ultimately had to be pulled off Barajas like Jeff Van Gundy on Alonzo Mourning’s leg as the melee petered out.
Carlson emerged with a nasty welt on his forehead, but he and Posada were the only ejections, and Carlson remained in the dugout, hiding behind his teammates and apparently continuing to plead his innocence. Meanwhile, third base umpire Derryl Cousins was hit in the knee by a full bottle of soda thrown by a fan in the stands determined to make the players look like dignified and civilized adults. Cousins wound up being the only “participant” to suffer an injury (as far as we know).
For proving unable to let his walk and run do the talking (or shoving) for him, Posada will surely incur a suspension. Otherwise it seems the Yankees got away lucky. To his immense credit, Joe Girardi held a closed-door meeting with his team afterwords, admonishing them for doing such a foolish and risky thing this close to a postseason berth.
The Yankees had hundreds of millions of dollars of players in the middle of that fight (Mark Teixeira tried to break things up but was quickly pulled out of the ruckus, on-deck-hitter Derek Jeter was right in the middle of things, and CC Sabathia was the man who finally pulled Posada out of the pack) just three weeks shy of the playoffs. The entire season could have gone the way of Bill Lee’s shoulder Tuesday night. The Yankees are damn lucky it didn’t.
Thanks for the 411, Cliff. That piece is in need of some serious editing. And Jorge is in need of some perspective -- hopefully Girardi took care of that after the game.
[1] I just went through and fixed those "needs editing" bits.
Posada = Red (Jack)ass
I hope things do not get out of hand again tomorrow. The Blue Jays have nothing to lose.
Carlson could have prevented the incident by staying away from Posada as he crossed the plate. He chose not to do that, and thus bears at least equal responsibility for what ensued.
As I said on the GT, I'm tired of watching Mitre rehab from TJ surgery on the MLB level.
He chose not to do that, and thus bears at least equal responsibility for what ensued.
No, not really. It was a dick move from Posada. He had his opportunity to settle things when he declined to charge the mound. It should've been over then.
[5] Yes, really. It was a dick move by Carlson as well. Who are we to decide when it's over? Exactly, our opinion means nothing. Posada will pay the consequences and he can do what he wants.
i'm just still terrified to wake up tomorrow and find out someone in the fracas ended up suffering some type of injury. i just hope everyone's okay.
here comes molina/cervelli. no more mitre, please!!!
It doesn't matter WHO could have ended it, Jorge RedAss jeapordized our PS. What are the Jays playing for? As spoiler? I'd say a broken wrist to any of our guys would spoil things.
Dumb, dumb move.
Jorge could always get 'em next year!
This year, we must be Zen masters.
Look, anyone who thinks Posada was out of line didn't see the hidden message written in invisible ink on the ball thrown behind him.
If you pause the pitch precisely 1 second and 17 frames before it passes behind Posada, and then hold a black light to your TV screen you'll see Carlson's incendiary words. You'll also need a magnifying glass with night vision, but you'll see Carlson's message reads: "Jeter's overrated, and the recent YES coverage of him has been beyond excessive. Oh, and why the fuck would he ever bunt?" Yeah, them's fighting words around these parts.
Clearly, Carlson was looking for trouble, and surely when MLB forensics investigators check the ball, Posada and all of the Yankees will be exonerated for their participation in the fracas.
[9] :)
I should add:
If you're wondering how on earth Posada saw that tiny invisible message coming at him at such a velocity -- you don't know jackshit about Posada's intangibles, and his painstaking attention to detail.
So there.
Posada will pay the consequences and he can do what he wants.
Doesn't change that he was a dumbass. There are more than enough opportunities to get at Carlson if needed. He can meet up with him after the game in the clubhouse or parking lot, or the following day during batting practice. Or he could've gone after Carlson when he threw behind him.
No matter which way you want to spin it, it was stupid on Posada.
Missed most of the game, came in late, saw it was 7-2 and flipped the channel so I missed the scrum.
To me, the worst part was the fan who threw the bottle onto the field. That should not happen. Ever.
Oh, and can we end the Sergio Mitre experience now?
[13] Fortunately, the Mitre experience will be over soon, one way or the other. No way he makes the playoff roster. Gaudin, on the other hand . . .
Big props to Girardi for laying into the team. That's all the Yanks need is for Posada to get seriously hurt 3 weeks before the playoffs start. Did he learn nothing last year when he was out? He's pretty damn important.
No matter which way you want to spin it, it was stupid on Posada.
And similarly stupid by Carlson. I don't understand how you can implicitly defend him.
I think its stupider for Posada simply by virtue of the fact that Posada (and his teammates) have a lot more to lose here than the Blue Jays.
Is Carlson an ass? Yeah probably. But the Yankees are a team thinking about winning a championship, you can't go getting mixed up in something that could put that in serious jeopardy.
They have been playing somewhat complacently since last Friday, so if this brawl awakens them from that malaise, it was probably worthwhile.
Sometimes the only way to deal with the Carlsons of the world is to stand up to the bs.
[15] Carlson's supposed to back up home plate, he was late covering. Or do you think that he went to home plate with the intention of having Posada bump him so that he could start a fight?
[18] Right, back up. He was on top of it. That is exactly what I think.
Sometimes the only way to deal with the Carlsons of the world is to stand up to the bs.
Then do it after the game, or tomorrow during batting practice. Better yet, have them talk to Melancon & Mitre about hitting opposing players, because that was the reason for Carlson's "retaliation."
[14] admonishing his players afterward is sort of a no brainer. I give bigger props to Girardi for being the first guy off the bench to protect his guy. Damn, he got there fast. At this point in his career Torre might have taken another two sips of tea before realizing what was going down.
Petty as it may have been, I had no problem with Jorgie brushing Carlson. Nothing thuggish or cheap about the brush. It was subtle enough for me, but it got him ejected, whatever. Po should have just kept jogging into the clubhouse instead of turning around to respond to Carlson's plaintive wailing and whining..
Funny thing is, Posada's concern for his own well-being is what made him so mad at Carlson in the first place. Clearly, he lost track of the big picture when he decided to put Carlson in his place. Again, whatever. Nobody got hurt. Posada's sorry for setting the wrong example for the kids which should be his only regret at this point.
That is exactly what I think.
Then Posada's an even bigger dumbass for taking the bait.
Jorge was definitely out of line, but I wouldn't give Girardi any credit for laying into the team afterwards. They should have had a meeting before this game. In the last 10 days, at least 3 players have forgotten simple things like how many outs or the count, while the hustle level has dropped as well. Swisher gave us the lastest example last night when he cruised into 2B on what should have been a triple.
For over a week, Girardi has been managing like these games don't count, so you can't blame the players for letting their concentration wander. A greater shame to me would have been if the Yankees lost Posada to a injury resulting from a HBP instigated by the awful pitching of Mitre and Melancon. Both should never throw another pitch for this year's team...the former because he is ungodly awful and the latter because he apparently has no control pitching to the inside part of the plate.
[20] I really don't know the logistics of after game fights, but as I said, I won't substitute my judgment for Posada's given that I was enjoying the comfort of my office/den while he was being thrown at.
I do know that some players don't like to be thrown behind even more than getting hit low in the body because their natural tendency is to move away from an inside pitch and when it's thrown behind you, you are in effect moving toward the pitch in an out of control way.
Then Posada’s an even bigger dumbass for taking the bait.
That's an opinion, like mine, not revealed wisdom.
While I don't think Posada's actions were wise, who is to say the confrontation didn't persuade Brandon League to not come up and in to Jeter, for example? Maybe the Jays thought the job wasn't finished? Had they tried to plunk another batter, he too could have been seriously injured. I don't blame the Jays for wanting retaliation, nor do I blame Posada for getting very emotional about an intentional beanball. I do, however, blame Mitre and Melancon as well as Girardi for using them in the first place.
[23] Good point about the recent mental lapses, but I think you're being a little hard on Girardi. He knows these games count, and he pressed the right button in the Angels game, bringing in Gardner (yeah, no brainer, but still he had the presense of mind to make the move). The players are at fault for their own mental lapses, and it's a safe bet that Girardi makes sure they hear about those kinds of mistakes.
A few quick points:
As a fan, I agree with all the bigger man, don't take the bait stuff. As someone who's been attacked and/or baited in my life, I disagree. And make no mistake, whenever you intentionally throw behind someone you are attacking them. I don't think there's any question that that's exactly what Carlson did.
Jorge got hot, and I can't blame him. Yeah, maybe it was dumb, but we're all dumb sometimes. I think the Yankees do enough "being the bigger men" to wash this out. (In fact, I can recall a few threads on BB lamenting this tendency)
Shelley Duncan has officially replaced Kyle Farnsworth as our "break glass in case of brawl" player. Shame we never managed to have a brawl while the Professor was on the team.
[27] He may know they count, but he isn't managing like he does. Aside from the mental breakdown, simple things like bringing in Marte on Friday and then just letting him give the game away are examples of Joe treating these games as if they aren't important. Similarly, leaving Mitre in so long to throw BP was awful. Everytime Mitre takes the mound the Yankees can't be giving their best effort to win.
[29] I'm no Mitre fan, but they are somehow 6-4 in the games that he has started so to say that they aren't giving their best effort everytime he takes the mound is inaccurate I think. That and I really don't know who else you hand the ball to in that spot who gives you a good chance to win, a September callup?
As for Girardi managing like the games don't count, I didn't get that sense two nights ago against Anaheim. Now you can certainly disagree with his moves in those games, but I don't think he took a careless approach to the game...if anything I think you'd have to say he over-managed.
[29] I hear ya, but the rotation is thin, and may be thinning as we speak, so Mitre unfortunately remains an option. I put that problem more in Cashman's department. Marte? Another unfortunate option presented by Cash. Girardi's going to take chances with some of these guys down the stretch hoping to catch lightning (or at least adequacy) in a bottle. For now, the leads remain comfortable enough that Girardi doesnt have to go full throttle with his A-players.
[13] me too rbj.
i saw the "highlights" this morning. i could also see po mouthing "you don't want to be doing that" to carlson.
I do know that some players don’t like to be thrown behind even more than getting hit low in the body because their natural tendency is to move away from an inside pitch and when it’s thrown behind you, you are in effect moving toward the pitch in an out of control way.
The pitch to Posada was low and behind. Waist level, IIRC
That and I really don’t know who else you hand the ball to in that spot who gives you a good chance to win, a September callup?
I think the problem is that Mitre is still on the team, regardless of him starting last night. Having said that, the only reason he got the start last night is because the Yanks are/were being cautious with Pettitte.
[33] Again, you keep substituting your judgment for Posada's. I refuse to do that.
Again, you keep substituting your judgment for Posada’s. I refuse to do that..
Good for you. It was still a stupid move. At the very least, Posada should've kept it moving into the dugout and up the clubhouse ramp.
[0] I don't think Girardi deserves "immense" credit for doing what he's supposed to do. I'm not taking anything away from him, I'm happy he did it, but that's part of his job.
The Jays had two guys hit in this game. Last week in Toronto Randy Ruiz got hit twice (once in the face), and Wells, Snider, McDonald, and Bautista also got drilled. So Posada shouldn't have been too surprised when Carlson fired one at his butt. But I think Posada was already upset before he stepped into the batter's box against Carlson - he had waved at and missed a couple of pretty catchable pitches the previous half inning.